Feb 18, 2021 Special City Council

[00:00:02]

GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.

[1. CALL TO ORDER]

THE TIME IS 6:00 P.M.

AS FAR AS ROLL CALL A MAJORITY OF MEMBERS ARE PRESENT THIS EVENING.

COUNCILLOR CYR MAY BE JOINING US A LITTLE BIT LATE.

WE ALSO HAVE MANY MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE.

SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

IS THERE ANY DECLARATIONS OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST [INAUDIBLE] FOR THIS TYPE OF MEETING ONCE, TWICE, THREE TIMES.

SEEING NONE WE WILL ROLL INTO PRESENTATIONS.

[4.1. Presentation by Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing]

SO I JUST ASK IF YOU'D BE ABLE TO INTRODUCE YOURSELVES AND AND WE'LL LISTEN INTENTLY AND TRY AND SAVE QUESTIONS FOR THE END, JUST FOR THE EASE OF USING ELECTRONIC MEETINGS HERE IN ZOOM.

GOOD EVENING.

MR. MAYOR.

MR. GAGNON I'M JUST THINKING, MAYBE BECAUSE OF ALL THE HOLLYWOOD SQUARES, IT MIGHT BE BEST IF THE NON COUNCIL MEMBERS WERE TO TURN THEIR CAMERA OFF.

AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE THE PRESENTERS AND THE COUNCIL MEMBERS, AND THEN IF A MEMBER WANTS TO GET THE CHAIR'S ATTENTION TO ASK A QUESTION, THEY CAN TURN THEIR CAMERA BACK ON.

AND THEN THAT WOULD BE KIND OF A VISUAL CUE TO YOU TO SAY, OK, YOU KNOW, MR. SMITH WANTS TO ASK A QUESTION AND THEY JUST POP THEIR CAMERA ON.

THAT MIGHT BE AN EASIER WAY TO DO IT FOR THOSE WHO ARE YOU KNOW ZOOM CAPABLE.

OK, FOR SURE.

OK, THANK YOU.

THERE WE GO.

THANK YOU.

SO PERHAPS MR. PROSPERI OR MS. [INAUDIBLE] OR MS. HORGAN CAN INTRODUCE THEMSELVES AND WE CAN TAKE IT FROM THERE.

ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

DAN CAN YOU HEAR ME OK? OK, PERFECT, SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH MAYOR AND COUNCIL FOR INVITING MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING TO PARTICIPATE IN YOUR MEETING THIS EVENING AS DAN MENTIONED MY NAME IS PAUL PROSPERI AND I'M A MUNICIPAL ADVISOR WITH THE ADMINISTRATING MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING LOCATED OUT OF OUR SUDBURY OFFICE.

I'VE BEEN WITH THE MINISTRY FOR PROBABLY JUST OVER 10 YEARS OR SO NOW AND CURRENTLY HAVE COVERAGE AREAS OF ALGOMA DISTRICT, MANITOULIN DISTRICT AND [INAUDIBLE].

SO PART OF WHAT WE DO AT THE MINISTRY OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING IS TO ENGAGE WITH COUNCILS AND MUNICIPALITIES AND PROVIDE THEM WITH INFORMATION AS IT RELATES TO THE LEGISLATION THAT GOVERNS MUNICIPALITIES.

SO SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IN THIS CASE, LARGELY THE MUNICIPAL ACT AND ON OCCASION WERE ASKED TO MAKE PRESENTATIONS TO COUNCIL AS IT RELATES TO COUNCIL STAFF RELATIONS.

SO THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN ASKED TO DO TONIGHT.

SO I WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT THE LEGISLATION, THE MUNICIPAL ACT, HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE ROLE OF COUNCIL, THE ROLE OF THE HEAD OF COUNCIL, THE ROLE OF STAFF AND THE ROLE OF THE CAO.

SO THIS BEING YEAR NUMBER THREE AND A FOUR YEAR MANDATE, I BET IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT MOST OF YOU ARE PROBABLY FAIRLY FAMILIAR WITH WHAT YOUR INDIVIDUAL ROLES ARE, HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS APPROPRIATE TO HAVE THIS TYPE OF REFRESHER TYPE OF SESSION AND PROVIDE PEOPLE WITH AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASK QUESTIONS.

SO IF I'M GOING THROUGH ANYTHING THIS EVENING, YOU DO HAVE A QUESTION.

I UNDERSTAND WE WERE TAKING QUESTIONS AT THE END, BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS AS WELL.

AND WITH ME TONIGHT AS WELL IS THE MANAGER OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING UNIT, KATHY HORGAN.

SO SHE'S PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENING'S MEETING AS WELL.

SO IF THERE ARE QUESTIONS OR ISSUES THAT MAYBE BEST DIRECTED TO HER, SHE IS ALSO HERE WITH ME AS WELL.

SO GIVE ME A SECOND AND I'LL SEE IF I CAN GET MY SCREEN SHARED.

EVERYONE SEE THAT, OK? YES.

EXCELLENT.

OK, SO I HAD MAYBE 10 OR SO SLIDES, IT SHOULD TAKE ME MAYBE 15 MINUTES OR SO TO GO THROUGH, STARTING WITH FIRST SLIDE HERE.

FIRST THINGS FIRST, WE HAVE A TYPICAL OUR STANDARD DISCLAIMER THAT WE PRODUCED

[00:05:06]

AND REALLY SHOULDN'T BE RELIED UPON FOR ANY LEGAL OR OFFICIAL PURPOSES.

IF YOU DO HAVE CONCERNS OR QUESTIONS AS TO HOW TO INTERPRET THE LEGISLATION THAT WILL BE PRESENTED TO YOU THIS EVENING, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BEST THAT YOU CONSULT OR GET A LEGAL OPINION OR HAVE YOUR MUNICIPAL STAFF SEEK ADVICE FROM A MUNICIPAL LAWYER.

SO JUST IN TERMS OF HOW THE MATERIAL IS BROKEN DOWN FOR THIS EVENING, THREE BASIC AREAS, SO WE'LL START BY TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ROLE OF COUNCIL, THEN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ROLE OF STAFF AND THEN KIND OF ROUND THINGS OUT WITH THE ROLE OF THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER.

SO THIS NEXT SLIDE, OR THIS FIRST SLIDE, REALLY, I THINK KIND OF SUMMARIZES OR PAINTS A FAIRLY GOOD PICTURE AS TO THE INTERPLAY OF COUNCIL, COUNCILLOR, HEAD OF COUNCIL AND STAFF.

IF YOU START AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE, YOU'LL SEE THAT THE GENERAL KIND OF OVERALL ROLE OF COUNCIL IS TO REPRESENT THE PUBLIC AND TO CONSIDER THE WELL-BEING AND INTERESTS OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO THAT'S A VERY BROAD TYPE OF STATE AND A LOT OF THINGS CAN FIT WITHIN THAT DEFINITION OR WITHIN THAT SENTENCE.

AND WE'LL TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT WHAT SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE A LITTLE BIT LATER ON IN THE PRESENTATION.

FROM THERE, WE MOVE ON TO THE HEAD OF COUNCIL.

AND EFFECTIVELY, AS YOU ALL KNOW, THE HEAD OF COUNCIL ACTS AS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF THE MUNICIPALITY AND IS THERE TO PROVIDE LEADERSHIP TO COUNCIL AROUND THE COUNCIL TABLE AND ON VARIOUS OTHER MATTERS THAT MAY BE PRESENTED TO THE COUNCIL OR TO THE MUNICIPALITY.

SECOND TO THAT, WE HAVE THE COUNCILLOR.

SO THE ROLE OF THE COUNCILLOR IS QUITE BROAD IN SCOPE.

SO THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT SPECIFIC ROLES AND THEY INCLUDE THE REPRESENTATIVE ROLE BEING ONE OF THEM.

AND THAT ROLE IS CUSTOMIZED BY HOW A COUNCILLOR REPRESENTS THE INTERESTS OF THE CONSTITUENTS THAT HE OR SHE IS REPRESENTING IN THEIR MUNICIPALITY.

SO OBVIOUSLY IT'S GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE, I THINK, FOR A COUNCILLOR TO EFFECTIVELY REPRESENT EVERY SINGLE CONCERN OR ISSUE THAT EACH INDIVIDUAL CONSTITUENT MAY HAVE.

SO IN THOSE CASES OR IN GENERAL, IT'S THE ROLE OF THE COUNCILLOR TO USE THE SKILLS THAT THEY USE TO GET THEMSELVES ELECTED SO THEIR POLITICAL ACUMEN AND MAKE DECISIONS AS TO WHAT WOULD BE IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE MUNICIPALITY AS A WHOLE.

SECOND TO THAT, THEY HAVE A POLICYMAKING ROLE.

AND THAT IS A FAIRLY LARGE PIECE, I THINK, OF THE ROLE OF A COUNCILLOR.

SO WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT FURTHER ON.

BUT POLICY-MAKING ROLE IS ALL ABOUT PROVIDING DIRECTION, THE OVERALL DIRECTION IN WHICH THE MUNICIPALITY WOULD LIKE TO GO AS IT RELATES TO WHATEVER MANDATE IT MAY HAVE AND IT WISHES TO SEE FULFILLED OVER THE COURSE OF ITS TERM.

AND THERE'S ALSO THE STEWARDSHIP ROLE.

SO THAT HAS TO DO WITH BEING ACCOUNTABLE OR BEING A GOOD STEWARD, SUPPOSE IS THE BEST WORD FOR THE ADMINISTRATIVE AND THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO THOSE THREE ROLES ARE KIND OF AT THE HEART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A COUNCILLOR AT A MUNICIPALITY.

AND THEN WE HAVE THE STAFF AS THE LAST ITEM ON THAT SLIDE.

AND ESSENTIALLY THE ROLE OF STAFF IN A VERY BIG NUTSHELL IS TO IMPLEMENT THE POLICY DECISIONS OR THE POLICY DIRECTION THAT COUNCIL HAS PROVIDED.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS THAT STAFF CAN GO ABOUT DOING THAT.

BUT THAT'S KIND OF THE HIGH LEVEL PICTURE.

SO GETTING INTO SOME MORE SPECIFIC RULES FOR COUNCIL AND STAFF AND SPECIFICALLY COUNCIL THIS ONE, SO SECTION 224 OF THE MUNICIPAL ACT SETS OUT THE SPECIFIC ROLES OF COUNCIL.

SO THEY ARE, AS YOU CAN SEE ON THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF YOU, FIRST TO REPRESENT THE PUBLIC AND TO CONSIDER THE WELL-BEING AND INTERESTS OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO TOUCHED UPON THAT A LITTLE BIT IN THE PREVIOUS SLIDE.

TO DEVELOP AND EVALUATE THE POLICIES AND PROGRAMS OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

TOUCHED A LITTLE BIT ON THAT AS WELL, ALREADY.

DETERMINE THE SERVICES THAT THE MUNICIPALITY PROVIDES ENSURE ADMINISTRATIVE PRACTICES, POLICIES AND PROCEDURES AND CONTROLS OR POLICIES, PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES ARE IN PLACE TO IMPLEMENT THE DECISIONS OF COUNCIL, ENSURE THE

[00:10:02]

SO THAT'S WHAT IT DOES SPECIFICALLY IN THE LEGISLATION AS IT RELATES TO THE ROLE OF COUNCIL.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND IN ALL OF THIS THAT REALLY COUNCILS ROLE IS TO PROVIDE POLICY DIRECTION TO STAFF AND PROVIDE THEM WITH DIRECTION WITH REGARD TO THE WAY IN WHICH THE POLICIES THAT THE MUNICIPALITY HAS ADOPTED ARE PUT INTO PLACE.

IT'S NOT THE PURVIEW OF COUNCIL TO UNDERTAKE IN ANY WAY THE DAY TO DAY OPERATIONS OF THE MUNICIPALITY THAT WILL FALL SQUARELY ON THE SHOULDERS OF STAFF.

SO LOOKING SPECIFICALLY AT THE HEAD OF COUNCIL AND HOW THAT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT FROM THE ROLE OF COUNCILLOR.

SO THIS IS SPECIFICALLY SET OUT IN SECTION TWO, TWENTY FIVE OF THE MUNICIPAL ACT.

AND IT SAYS THAT THE HEAD OF COUNCIL SHALL PROVIDE LEADERSHIP TO COUNCIL, PRESIDE OVER A COUNCIL MEETING SO THAT BUSINESS CAN BE CARRIED OUT EFFICIENTLY AND EFFECTIVELY.

ACT AS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, PROVIDE INFORMATION AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO COUNCIL WITH RESPECT TO THE ROLE OF COUNCIL SO THAT INCLUDES BOTH ADMINISTRATIVE AND CONTROLLERSHIP POLICIES PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES ARE IN PLACE TO IMPLEMENT THE DECISIONS OF COUNCIL AND TO ENSURE THE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY OF THE OPERATIONS OF THE MUNICIPALITY, INCLUDING THE ACTIVITIES OF THE SENIOR MANAGEMENT OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

IT'S ALSO THE ROLE OR THE DUTY OF THE HEAD OF COUNCIL TO REPRESENT THE MUNICIPALITY AT OFFICIAL FUNCTIONS.

AND OF COURSE, YOU HAVE THE BOARD TO CARRY OUT DUTIES OF THE HEAD OF COUNCIL UNDER THIS OR ANY OTHER ACT.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEFINITION FOR THE HEAD OF COUNCIL, IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS IN THERE ACT AS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER.

SOMETIMES THAT TERM CAUSES SOME CONFUSION BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT IT IS INTERPRETED OR OF THE WAY THAT IT'S MEANT IN THE BUSINESS WORLD.

SO IN THE BUSINESS WORLD, THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER IS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO REPORTS TO ULTIMATELY REPORTS TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT IT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING WHEN WERE USING THE TERM CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AS IT RELATES TO THE HEAD OF COUNCIL IN THE MUNICIPAL ACT, IT'S MORE AKIN TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO LOOK AT IT FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW OR FROM A CORPORATE STRUCTURE.

SO SOMETIMES IT'S A BIT OF CONFUSION AROUND THAT TERM.

SO I THOUGHT IT'D BE WORTH CLARIFYING EXACTLY WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ACTING AS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER? MOVING ON TO THE ROLE OF STAFF, SO THAT IS SET OUT IN SECTION TWO, TWENTY SEVEN OF THE MUNICIPAL ACT AND INCLUDES THINGS THAT INCLUDES THE FACT THAT OUTLINES THE ROLE OF STAFF, I SHOULD SAY, AS IMPLEMENTING COUNCIL'S DECISION IN ESTABLISHING ADMINISTRATIVE PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES TO CARRY OUT COUNCILS DECISIONS, UNDERTAKE RESEARCH AND PROVIDE ADVICE TO COUNCIL ON POLICIES AND PROGRAMS OF THE MUNICIPALITY TO CARRY OUT DUTIES REQUIRED UNDER THIS ACT AND OR OTHER DUTIES ASSIGNED BY THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO THAT'S A FAIRLY LARGE CATCH ALL AND OTHER DUTIES ASSIGNED BY THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO OBVIOUSLY MUNICIPALITY IS PROVIDED WITH QUITE A BIT OF LEEWAY WITH RESPECT TO THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN DIRECT STAFF TO DO.

SOME OFFICERS OF THE MUNICIPALITY, THOUGH, DO HAVE STATUTORY OBLIGATIONS, SO THINGS THAT CAN'T BE CHANGED BY THE COUNCIL.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S FOUR OF THEM THAT ARE LISTED THERE, THE CLERK AND AN EXAMPLE OF A STATUTORY OBLIGATION THAT THE CLERK WOULD HAVE WOULD BE, FOR EXAMPLE, RECORDING MINUTES OF THE MEETING WITHOUT NOTE OR COMMENT.

THAT'S ONE EXAMPLE.

AND MAYBE FOR A TREASURER, AN EXAMPLE OF A STATUTORY OBLIGATION FOR THAT POSITION WOULD BE TO COLLECT PAYMENT OR TO COLLECT TAXES AND DEPOSIT THEM INTO A BANK ACCOUNT FOR THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE SET UP IN THE ACT THAT GOES FOR THOSE TWO EXAMPLES THAT THOSE POSITIONS MUST UNDERTAKE.

SO.

WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE ROLE, THE POLICYMAKING ROLE FOR COUNCIL VERSUS THE IMPLEMENTATION ROLE OF STAFF, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE IT'S A COMPLETELY ONE WAY STREET.

SO COUNCIL PROVIDES POLICY, OR SETS OUT THE POLICY AND PROVIDES THAT THE POLICY IS

[00:15:04]

SO THERE CAN BE A KIND OF INTERPLAY BETWEEN STAFF AND COUNCIL AS IT RELATES TO THAT POLICY.

IN THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IF, FOR EXAMPLE, COUNCIL DIRECTS STAFF TO IMPLEMENT A SNOWPLOWING POLICY AND STAFF THEN UNDERTAKES THIS MEASURE AND BEGINS TO IMPLEMENT THE DIRECTION OF COUNCIL AS IT RELATES TO SNOWPLOWING, THEY DETERMINE THAT THE COST TO IMPLEMENT THE POLICY IS MUCH GREATER THAN WHAT COUNCIL HAD ORIGINALLY INTENDED.

SO AT THAT POINT IN TIME, IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR STAFF TO ADVISE COUNCIL THAT, LISTEN, THE POLICY THAT YOU DIRECTED US TO UNDERTAKE IS COSTING WAY MORE THAN YOU ORIGINALLY AGREED FOR IT TO COST.

SO HERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO REMEDY THAT OR TO CORRECT THAT, TO ENSURE THAT THE POLICY IS IMPLEMENTED AND IS IMPLEMENTED IN A WAY THAT MEETS THE FINANCIAL CRITERIA THAT COUNCIL HAS PUT FORWARD.

SO THERE CAN BE A RELATIONSHIP THERE BETWEEN STAFF AND COUNCIL.

IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE DIRECTED DOWNHILL TOWARDS STAFF FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM.

SO THAT BRINGS US TO THE ROLE OF THE CAO, THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER.

THE MUNICIPAL ACT, SETS OUT THE ROLE OF THE CAO AS FOLLOWS, AND THAT'S SET OUT IN SECTION TWO TWENTY NINE OF THE ACT.

SO SPECIFICALLY, IT SAYS THAT THE CAO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EXERCISING GENERAL CONTROL AND MANAGEMENT OF THE AFFAIRS OF THE MUNICIPALITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENSURING THE EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE OPERATION OF THAT MUNICIPALITY AND PERFORMING SUCH OTHER DUTIES AS ASSIGNED BY THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO YOU HAVE THERE THAT CLAUSE AGAIN PERFORM SUCH OTHER DUTIES AS ASSIGNED BY THE MUNICIPALITY, WHICH IS VERY BROAD IN SCOPE, AND PROVIDES THE MUNICIPALITY WITH A LOT OF LEEWAY WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THINGS IT CAN ASK THE CAO TO DO.

WHEN I THINK OF THE ROLE OF THE CAO, I KIND OF LIKEN IT TO ALMOST A IF YOU PICTURE AN HOURGLASS IN YOUR MIND, YOU HAVE THE CONTAINER AT THE TOP AND THE RECEPTACLE AT THE BOTTOM AND THEN IN THE MIDDLE, THERE'S A VERY NARROW AREA.

SO I THINK IF YOU COMPARE THAT TOP PART, FOR EXAMPLE, TO BEING THE MUNICIPAL COUNCIL AND THE BOTTOM PART TO BEING THE STAFF AT THE MUNICIPALITY RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE IS THE CAO.

SO DEPENDING ON HOW THE THE HOURGLASS IS ORIENTATED, ALL THAT INFORMATION TYPICALLY WOULD FLOW THROUGH FROM COUNCIL TO STAFF, THROUGH THE CAO AND VICE VERSA.

SO THAT'S THE WAY THAT THE VISUAL THAT I USE IN REGARD TO THE ROLE OF THE CAO.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE, TOO, THAT THE ROLE OF THE CAO OR THE APPOINTMENT OF A CAO IS NOT A REQUIREMENT OF THE ACT.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT MUNICIPALITIES CAN CHOOSE TO ADOPT OR CAN CHOOSE TO IMPLEMENT IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

BUT UNLIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CLERK OR THE TREASURER, THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR A MUNICIPALITY TO HAVE A CAO IN PLACE.

SO THIS FINAL SLIDE JUST, I THINK, SUMMARIZES A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN A NUTSHELL, REALLY THE GENERAL RULE, THE GENERAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COUNCIL AND STAFF IS THAT, AS I MENTIONED, COUNCIL PROVIDES THE POLICYMAKING ROLE, DEVELOPS POLICY DEBATES THAT POLICY ULTIMATELY MAKES THE DECISION WITH RESPECT TO HOW BEST TO OR WHICH POLICIES I WANTS TO ADOPT BASED ON, SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE REPRESENTATIVE ROLE THAT IT HAS REPRESENTING THE CONSTITUENTS THAT IT HAS IN ITS PARTICULAR BOARD OR IF IT'S AT LARGE AND THE WHOLE MUNICIPALITY.

AND MAKING POLICY DECISIONS BASED ON ALL KINDS OF INFORMATION THAT BEING ONE, OTHERS OBVIOUSLY BEING RESEARCHED THAT STAFF HAS PROVIDED FOR THEM.

AND THEN ADOPTING THOSE POLICIES AND THEN THROUGH THE CAO, HAVING THE STAFF OF THE MUNICIPALITY IMPLEMENT THOSE POLICIES.

SO AT THE BOTTOM, YOU'LL SEE A BIT OF A SUMMARY OF THE ROLES OF COUNCIL CAO AND STAFF.

SO THAT'S KIND OF ALL I HAD.

I REALIZED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY A REFRESHER.

AS I SAID TO MOST OF YOU, BUT IF ANYTHING I SAID MAYBE SPARKED A QUESTION THAT MAY HAVE BEEN SITTING IN YOUR MIND FOR THE LAST LITTLE BIT AND YOU WEREN'T SURE ABOUT SOMETHING.

DAN, I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU WANT TO APPROACH IT BUT IF YOU CAN TAKE QUESTIONS NOW

[00:20:02]

I THINK WE CAN PROBABLY DO BOTH, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S UP TO THE CHAIR OF COURSE.

THANK YOU, PAUL, FOR THE PRESENTATION FOR SURE.

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU CAN GIVE US OUR SCREEN BACK HERE.

YEAH OF COURSE.

AND SEE IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS FOR YOU.

THERE YOU GO.

THANK YOU.

AND SO I'D ASK YEAH IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS FOR PAUL RIGHT NOW AND COMMITTEE MEMBERS WATCHING, IF YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC QUESTION, JUST POP YOUR VIDEO ON SO I CAN SEE YOU.

[INAUDIBLE].

COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

MR. MAYOR, THROUGH YOU, PAUL, BASED ON SLIDES TWO AND THE SLIDE ON PAGE SIX, SO YOU STATE THAT IT'S COUNCIL'S JOB TO DO POLICIES WHICH WE DO BY RESOLUTION.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE COUNCIL PUTS A RESOLUTION IN PLACE AND THE CAO AND THE MAYOR AREN'T FOLLOWING THAT RESOLUTION AND WANT TO GO AGAINST IT AND HAVE IT CHANGED? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT? WELL, I MEAN, THERE WOULD BE A PROCEDURAL MATTER, I WOUL THINK.

I MEAN, IF A BYLAW OR A RESOLUTION IS PASSED BY THE COUNCIL, BY THE MUNICIPALITY, THEN IT BECOMES INCUMBENT, I THINK, ON THOSE THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THAT PARTICULAR POLICY OR BY THAT BY LAW TO ADHERE TO THE DIRECTION THAT COUNCIL WISHES TO PROCEED.

YEAH, I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE MY BEST ANSWER.

I DON'T KNOW IF KATHY OR PERHAPS ROBERT MAY WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT AS WELL, BUT THAT'S THE WAY THAT I WOULD LOOK IT ANYWAY.

YEAH, HI, IT'S KATHY, WHAT I WOULD ADD TO THAT TO WHAT PAUL JUST SAID WAS MUNICIPALITIES WOULD HAVE OR SHOULD HAVE PROCEDURES OUTLINED IN THE PROCEDURAL BYLAW THAT WOULD OR COULD DEAL WITH BRINGING MATTERS BACK TO COUNCIL FOR CONSIDERATION.

SO IN A LOT OF PROCEDURAL BYLAWS, THERE WILL BE PROVISIONS FOR RECONSIDERATION.

SO AT THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, A MEMBER OF COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON WHAT IS LISTED IN THE PROCEDURE, BYLAW MAY BE ABLE TO BRING IT BACK.

SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE A RECONSIDERATION POLICY WITHIN YOUR PROCEDURE, BYLAW, YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER ADOPTING ONE.

FOLLOW UP, COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

THANK YOU.

WE DO HAVE THAT IN OUR BYLAW, WE DO HAVE RECONSIDERATION AND SO FORTH.

THE ISSUE IS IF IT'S NOT FOLLOWED WHAT IS THE RECOURSE OF THE BALANCE OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, SO IF COUNCIL PUTS A RESOLUTION FORWARD, IT'S APPROVED AND I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO IT OR I'M GOING TO HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION LATER ABOUT THE ALL ENCOMPASSING BYLAW, BECAUSE WE NO LONGER DO BYLAWS ON EACH OF OUR RESOLUTIONS.

SO ALL WE HAVE IS A RESOLUTION TO DEAL WITH ITEMS. BUT SO IF A RESOLUTION IS PASSED AND APPROVED BY THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL AND THEN IT'S BEING BROUGHT BACK AND SUPERSEDED OR NOT BEING FOLLOWED, IT'S BEING PUT BACK ON AN AGENDA OR AN AGENDA IS BEING STRUCK NOT BY THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL TO SUPERSEDE THAT DECISION.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT? I KNOW HOW TO BRING THINGS FORWARD IF IT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP, BUT HOW DO YOU SUPERSEDE OR HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH SOMEBODY THAT'S NOT FOLLOWING THAT PROCEDURE AND TRYING TO CIRCUMVENT THE POLICY OR THE PROCEDURE.

WELL, I GUESS YOU MAY LOOK TO I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT, SO YOU MAY NEED TO LOOK THERE OR BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF A COUNCIL OR AT A COUNCIL MEETING, I'LL DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO I THINK IT'S SECTION FIVE OF THE MUNICIPAL ACT DOES INDICATE THAT DECISIONS OF COUNCIL ARE MADE BY BYLAW AND THAT AND THEN THERE'S ANOTHER SECTION I CAN'T REMEMBER OF OFFHAND ABOUT THE VOTING.

SO DECISIONS ARE MADE BY COUNCIL AS A WHOLE.

AND THE MUNICIPAL ACT IS CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

SO ONCE A DECISION IS MADE IN ORDER TO BRING IT BACK, YOU WOULD LOOK TO YOUR PROCEDURE BYLAW.

ANYTHING BEYOND WHAT THE MUNICIPAL ACT SAYS WE CAN'T REALLY SPEAK TO THAT.

IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, CODE OF CONDUCT MATTER, THEN YOU COULD SPEAK WITH YOUR INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

EITHER THAT FAILING THAT, THEN I, BRING YOUR ATTENTION BACK TO PAUL'S AT THE

[00:25:07]

AND WHAT YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, BRINGING UP MAY REQUIRE YOU TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE MUNICIPAL LAWYER OR A CONVERSATION AT COUNCIL AS A WHOLE TO TALK ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF MATTERS.

THANK YOU.

I'M NOT SURE IF THAT HELPED.

QUESTION ALONG THE SAME LINES, PAUL OR KATHY.

SO IT IS THE CAO AND STAFF'S JOB TO IMPLEMENT DECISIONS OF COUNCIL.

HOWEVER, IF COUNCIL PASSES A RESOLUTION THAT IS AGAINST OUR PROCEDURAL BYLAW.

AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IT'S CAUGHT.

I KNOW IT'S THE CHAIR'S JOB AND HOPEFULLY YOU CAN CHIME IN HERE, THE CLERK OR THE CAO TO NOTIFY COUNCIL THAT THEY'RE PASSING SOMETHING THAT MAY BE NOT LEGAL ACCORDING TO THE PROCEDURAL BYLAW.

AND THIS IS WHERE WE MAY HAVE ISSUES, SO HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH A SITUATION WHERE SOMETHING HAS BEEN BEEN PASSED BY COUNCIL THAT IS INADVERTENTLY GOING AGAINST OUR OWN PROCEDURAL BYLAW, AND THAT'S WHERE THE ISSUE STEMS SO.

THAT'S MY FIRST QUESTION.

I'LL SEE WHERE YOU CAN LEAD US WITH THIS.

[INAUDIBLE] IF I CAN JUST JUMP IN, THERE'S NOTHING IN THE MUNICIPAL ACT THAT'S GOING TO PROVIDE ANY DIRECTION REGARDING A SITUATION LIKE THAT.

SO I WOULD THINK THAT IF THERE WAS A PROCEDURAL ERROR IN THE PASSING OF A BYLAW OR OF A RESOLUTION, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOME KIND OF PROCEDURAL CORRECTION FOR THAT ERROR SO THAT THE INTENTION OF COUNCIL COULD BE IMPLEMENTED BY STAFF WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF THE PROCEDURAL BYLAW.

SO THAT I THINK TO ME SOUNDS LIKE A CLERICAL ERROR THAT THAT YOUR PROCEDURE BYLAW MAY SPEAK TO WITH REGARD TO CORRECTING IT.

AND THAT'S THE WAY THAT I WOULD LOOK AT IT.

I DON'T KNOW IF KATHY YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD.

NOW, THE ONLY THING TO ADD, I WOULD SAY, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, OFTENTIMES COUNCIL MAKES DECISIONS, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, BY BYLAW OR BY RESOLUTION.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THEY FIND OUT THAT, OH, MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE THAT DECISION, WHETHER IT WAS INADVERTENT OR THEY'VE JUST DECIDED NEW INFORMATION CAME IN AND AND THEY NEED TO CHANGE THEIR MIND.

THAT HAPPENS ON COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, OFTEN.

SO, AGAIN, YOU LOOK TO YOUR PROCEDURES TO BRING IT BACK.

AND, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS YOU'RE FOLLOWING YOUR PROCEDURES TO BRING IT BACK, THEN THERE SHOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE WITH THAT.

OK, MR. GAGNON.

JUST WANTED TO MAKE A NOTE, IT'S VASTLY SIMPLER WHEN IT'S A QUESTION OF THE CAO DOING SOMETHING THAT COUNCIL IS NOT HAPPY WITH BECAUSE THE CAO REPORTS TO COUNCIL.

OF COURSE, THE CAO REPORTS TO THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL ONCE.

SO WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL AGREEING THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH THE PERFORMANCE OR THE BEHAVIOR OR THE WORK OF A CAO.

AND THAT'S THE IMPORTANT POINT THERE NOT A MINORITY, JUST A MAJORITY.

SO IF THERE'S A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL HAVE AN ISSUE, THEN CAO REPORTS TO COUNCIL AND COUNCIL CAN DEAL WITH THAT QUITE SIMPLY.

BUT IF IT'S JUST A MINORITY, IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO GO UP VERY FAR.

I THINK DECISIONS OF COUNCILLOR ARE MADE BY COUNCIL AS A WHOLE AND NOT BY ANY ONE PARTICULAR MEMBER OF COUNCIL, THE HEAD OF COUNCIL INCLUDED.

JUST A FOLLOW UP ON THAT AND AN ISSUE THAT'S ARISEN OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS, I'VE BEEN ON COUNCIL UNDERSTANDING THE ROLE OF HEAD OF COUNCIL, PART OF THE ROLE IS PROVIDING LEADERSHIP TO COUNCIL IN RESPECT TO.

LOOKING AT NOT JUST OUR ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES, BY RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT OUR PROCEDURES AND POLICIES, SO I FOUND IN THE LAST SIX YEARS, EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, SOMETHING WILL COME UP WHERE ESPECIALLY WITH OUR OLD PROCEDURAL BYLAW THAT WAS WRITTEN IN ANCIENT ENGLISH WAS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND INTERPRETATION OF PROCEDURE OR POLICY BASED ON HOW IT WAS WORDED.

[00:30:01]

THIS IS WHAT OUR RULES SAY, BUT THEIR INTERPRETATION MAY BE DIFFERENT.

SO IT BECOMES DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST ANOTHER PERSON, TOO, EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TRYING TO FOLLOW THAT ROLE AS THIS IS WHAT IS SAID AND THIS IS HOW WE NEED TO DO.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THESE CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN INDIVIDUALS MAY JUST NOT LIKE WHO YOU ARE? SO IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW YOU POINT IT OUT, YOU'RE PUT IN THAT PREDICAMENT OF THEY DON'T LIKE YOU.

SO THEY'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE WORDING.

MR. MAYOR, CAN I WEIGH IN THIS IS ROBERT SWAYZE? SURE MR. SWAYZE.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE MISSING IS THAT THE CHAIR OF THE MEETING, IT'S THE MAYOR, IF IT'S COUNCIL OR SOMEONE ELSE, IF IT'S A COMMITTEE.

THE CHAIR HAS THE JURISDICTION TO MAKE A RULING ON PROCEDURAL MATTERS.

AND YOU ARE TOTALLY WITHIN YOUR RIGHT TO MAKE THAT RULING.

SO I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT.

OK, THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

OKAY.

COUNCILLOR PATRIE HAD ANOTHER QUESTION.

THANK YOU, THROUGH YOU TO MR. SWAYZE, THANK YOU FOR CHIMING IN SO.

THAT HAS TO BE DONE DURING THE MEETING, IS THAT NOT CORRECT, MR. SWAYZE? SO YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

SO YOU CAN'T AFTER THE RESOLUTION IS PASSED, THE MEETING IS OVER.

YOU CANNOT GO AGAINST WHAT THAT RESOLUTION STATED UNLESS YOU'RE GOING TO DO AS AS MRS. HORGAN SAID DO S NOTICE OF MOTION OR A RECONSIDERATION.

BRING IT BACK TO COUNCIL.

HAVE COUNCIL REDELIBERATE AND CHANGE THAT RESOLUTION, YOU CAN'T.

SO THAT'S WHAT MY ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS, CAN THE MAYOR AND THE CAO INDEPENDENTLY GO AGAINST WHAT THAT RESOLUTION WAS? AND AGAIN, I'M USING RESOLUTIONS BECAUSE WE DO NOT DO BYLAWS ANY LONGER.

AND I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT QUESTION AT SOME POINT IN THIS MEETING.

WE DO A CONFIRMING BYLAW AT THE END OF EVERY MEETING AND NO LONGER DO BYLAWS PER ITEM.

I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS, AND I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ON WHAT AND OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING HAPPENED, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF IT'S A PROCEDURAL MATTER, THE CHAIR HAS THE JURISDICTION TO MAKE THE RULING.

IF IT TURNS OUT THAT COUNCIL PASSES THE RESOLUTION OR OR WHATEVER, THAT IS NOT CONTRARY TO THE LAW, THEN IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT CAN BE BROUGHT UP AGAIN BY REFERENCE TO THE CITY SOLICITOR AND GET AN OPINION.

AND YOU DON'T NEED TO GO BY THE PROCEDURE BY LAW IF THE CITY SOLICITOR HAS THE OPINION THAT THAT IT WAS ILLEGAL.

SO JUST TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, MR. SWAYZE, IF I MIGHT.

WOULD IT? AND I DO BELIEVE IT IS, BUT I'M ASKING ANYWAY, WOULD IT BE IN THE PURVIEW OF OUR CAO TO LOOK AND SAY, OK, WHILE THERE'S A LITTLE CONFUSION WITH THIS MATTER, SO I'LL REACH OUT TO THE CITY SOLICITOR AND GET THAT OPINION SO THAT EVERYONE IS AWARE AS TO THE SITUATION? YES.

AND THEN THE CITY SOLICITOR CAN REPORT TO COUNCIL AND CORRECT MATTERS.

BUT I THINK THE KEY THERE IS BRINGING IT BACK TO COUNCIL TO CORRECT IT, BECAUSE THE DECISION WAS ORIGINALLY MADE BY COUNCIL.

SO I WOULD HOPE THAT YOUR STAFF AND, YOU KNOW, WHICHEVER STAFF IT IS WOULD IF COUNCIL DID MAKE A DECISION THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, INADVERTENT OR, YOU KNOW, IN ERROR, THAT IT BE BROUGHT BACK TO A COUNCIL MEETING TO CORRECT.

SO THAT COUNCIL CAN MAKE THE CORRECTION.

OTHERWISE, THAT DECISION THAT IS ON RECORD, PUBLIC RECORD, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC IS SEEING THAT THAT DECISION MADE.

AND IF THERE'S A DIFFERENT ACTION THAT IS BEING TAKEN LATER, THEN THAT LEAVES QUESTIONS TO THE PUBLIC.

RIGHT, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW THAT SOMETHING CHANGED, SOMETHING CAUSED A CHANGE.

SO, AGAIN, DECISIONS ARE MADE IN OPEN PUBLIC MEETINGS BY COUNCIL.

SO I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT THEY BE BROUGHT BACK.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I MEAN, IF YOU'RE SEEKING A LEGAL OPINION AND YOUR LAWYER IS PROVIDING YOU WITH ADVICE, OBVIOUSLY YOU FOLLOW THEIR ADVICE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY BRING IT BACK TO THE COUNCIL, BECAUSE THAT'S

[00:35:03]

I AGREE, BUT IT SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK BY WAY OF A LEGAL OPINION FROM THE CITY SOLICITOR.

[INAUDIBLE] THERE IS A REPORT, OK, THANK YOU, MR. SWAYZE.

AND JUST INSTEAD OF BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, THIS IS A RECENT ISSUE THAT WENT ON AND A LOT HAS TO DO WITH THE WORDING OF A RESOLUTION THAT WAS PASSED.

A RESOLUTION THAT WAS PASSED WAS TO DEFER ALL CLOSED SESSION ITEMS UNTIL COUNCIL CAN MEET IN PERSON.

SO THE ISSUE BEING THERE, NOT ONLY IS IT CONTRADICTING OUR PROCEDURAL BYLAW, THAT'S FINE.

WE HAVE USED THE PROVISION FOR RECONSIDERATION IN THE PAST BECAUSE COUNCILLORS ARE PEOPLE AND PEOPLE DO MAKE ERRORS.

ONCE IN A WHILE, YOU FIND OUT NEW INFORMATION, YOU WANT TO BRING IT BACK.

BUT WITH THIS SPECIFIC BEING WORDED AS UNTIL COUNCIL CAN MEET IN PERSON, COUNCIL CAN MEET IN PERSON ANY TIME, AND WHICH WE DID YESTERDAY AFTERNOON WITH A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL ACTUALLY IN PERSON AND TWO INDIVIDUALS VIA ZOOM.

SO AGAIN, NOT BY PASSING OR CANNING THE RESOLUTION.

THE WORDING WAS UNTIL MEET IN PERSON AND WE HAD A MAJORITY IN PERSON.

BUT I KNOW COUNCILLOR PATRIE IS UPSET THAT WE HAD THIS MEETING.

OUR PROCEDURAL BYLAW SAYS IF YOU DEFER SOMETHING, IT HAS TO BE UNTIL A TIME IS CERTAIN.

AND NOT GIVING AN END DATE TO THAT IS WHERE PROCEDURALLY THERE'S A BIT OF AN ISSUE, BECAUSE IF WE'RE WAITING TILL THE END OF A PANDEMIC, WE COULD BE WAITING ANOTHER SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR.

BUT WE WERE ABLE TO MAJORITY MEET IN PERSON AND THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL LOOKED AT WHAT'S SET OUT IN THE MUNICIPAL ACT AND LAW NOW INDIVIDUALS CAN MEET VIA ZOOM IT'S LEGAL, IT'S SECURE, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO LEAVE INDIVIDUALS OUT BECAUSE THEY MIGHT HAVE AN AILMENT OR AN INJURY THAT CAN'T ATTEND IN PERSON.

BEING ELECTED TO COUNCIL THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO ATTEND.

SO THAT WAS THE SITUATION THAT'S BEING REFERRED TO MEETING HAPPENED YESTERDAY.

COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

THANK YOU.

THAT EXPLAINS IT.

MY ISSUE IS, IF I COULD CLARIFY A LITTLE FURTHER ON WHAT THE MAYOR HAS JUST STATED, THE POINT IS IT WAS A SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING CALLED.

A LEGAL OPINION SOUGHT BY THE CAO THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS IMPROPERLY WORDED, SO THEY WERE CALLING THE MEETING.

MY ISSUE IS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BACK.

IF THAT IS THE ISSUE, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BACK TO MONDAY'S COUNCIL MEETING PROCEDURALLY AND THEN RESTRUCTURED AND RE DEALT WITH THE PROBLEM AS IT WAS A FOUR THREE VOTE.

AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED.

SO IF A VOTE GOES A CERTAIN WAY, OFTEN STUFF WILL BE BROUGHT BACK TO SPECIAL MEETINGS WITHOUT IT BEING BROUGHT BACK PROCEDURALLY THROUGH A COUNCIL MEETING.

AND THEN AGAIN, MY QUESTION BECOMES, DOES THIS WARRANT A SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING WHEN NOT ALL MEMBERS CAN BE PRESENT TO DO THIS INSTEAD OF WAITING AN EXTRA TWO DAYS TO GET TO THE COUNCIL MEETING? SO MY ISSUE IS PROCEDURALLY, WE SHOULD HAVE JUST LEFT THAT UNTIL MONDAY, DEALT WITH IT MONDAY NIGHT, AND THAT RESOLUTION COULD HAVE BEEN CORRECTED AND REWORKED RIGHT THROUGH THAT COUNCIL MEETING.

THE WORDING OF THE RESOLUTION DID AFFECT THE MEANING OF THE RESOLUTION, SO THE POINT OF THE RESOLUTION WAS THAT ALL MEMBERS WERE TO BE IN PERSON AND THAT WE DIDN'T WANT TO MEET VIA ZOOM FOR OUR CLOSED SESSION MATTERS.

THE FOUR MEMBERS THAT VOTED THAT WAY ON THAT MEETING.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE BIT MORE CLARIFICATION TO IT THAN WHAT WAS JUST STATED.

MY POINT IS THAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BACK PROCEDURALLY THROUGH COUNCIL AND NOT CIRCUMVENTED THROUGH A SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING IN MY OPINION.

AND THROUGH YOU, MR. MAYOR, I AM NOT THE CITY SOLICITOR AND I DON'T WEIGH IN ON PROCEDURAL OPINIONS.

MR. GAGNON.

WELL, I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY IT'S NOT PARTICULARLY FAIR TO OUR PRESENTERS TO BE ASKING THEM WITHOUT THE CONTEXT THAT SOME OF US HAVE AT THIS PARTICULARS OF AN EXACT EXAMPLE.

SO IF WE WANT TO HAVE A DEEP DIVE IN THAT, WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT IN ANOTHER FORMAT.

WE ALSO HAVE SEVERAL COMMITTEE MEMBERS HERE TO BE TRAINED ON CODES OF CONDUCT POLICIES AND PROCEDURES.

I THINK WE NEED TO MOVE ON.

BUT AGAIN, THAT'S UP TO THE CHAIR, OF COURSE.

AND IF WE WANT TO DO A DEEP DIVE IN THIS IN SOME OTHER FORMAT, IT WOULD BE BEST

[00:40:05]

COUNCILLOR FINAMORE.

THANK YOU, YOUR WORSHIP THROUGH YOU.

I JUST HAVE A QUESTION.

THIS IS AN EDUCATION SESSION AND I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND FOR MOVING FORWARD IF THIS WAS TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

SO IF A RESOLUTION IS PASSED AND THEN IT'S DISCOVERED BY ERROR, THERE WAS NO.

THERE WAS NO HARM, NO FOUL, LIKE NOBODY DID THIS ON PURPOSE.

IT WAS AN ERROR THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS WORDED INCORRECTLY.

NEXT TIME WE WOULD HAVE TO BRING IT BACK TO COUNCIL, EITHER THROUGH A NOTICE OF MOTION OR WITH NEW INFORMATION.

AND WE WOULD THEN DISCUSS IT, DEBATE IT AND THEN MOVE ON.

IT JUST WOULD NOT BE IGNORED.

RIGHT.

THAT SO JUST FOR MY SAKE, FOR PROCESS, WE MISSED A STEP AND NEXT TIME WE SHOULD BRING IT BACK, HAVE ANOTHER DISCUSSION AND ANOTHER VOTE.

CORRECT IS THAT WHAT I'M GETTING FROM THAT ALL THAT.

WHOEVER WANTS IT.

I'M SORRY IS THIS DIRECTED AT ME OR? YEAH, I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE THE APPROPRIATE APPROACH.

SO IF A RESOLUTION IF COUNCIL WANTS TO RECONSIDER A RESOLUTION THAT HAS BEEN PASSED BY COUNCIL IN ITS ENTIRETY, THEN IN ORDER FOR THAT RESOLUTION TO BE RECONSIDERED, THERE'S A PROCESS THAT'S OUTLINED IN YOUR PROCEDURE BYLAW THAT THE COUNCIL MUNICIPALITY WOULD FOLLOW SO THAT THEY COULD RECONSIDER THAT SAME MOTION AT A SUBSEQUENT MEETING.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

AND THAT IS NORMALLY THE WAY THINGS PROCEED.

WE HAVE HAD USE OF THE MOTION TO RECONSIDER MANY TIMES IN THE LAST I THINK IT'S BEEN FOUR YEARS THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD THAT MOTION INCLUDED IN OUR PROCEDURAL BYLAW.

IN THIS CASE, THE WORDING WAS UNTIL WE CAN MEET IN PERSON AND WE COULD MEET IN PERSON.

WE HAD A THREE HOUR MEETING YESTERDAY JUST TO DEAL WITH BACKLOGGED CLOSED SESSION ITEMS. AND I THANK EVERYONE FOR ATTENDING TO TAKE CARE OF THAT, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE BUSINESS IN MUNICIPALITY NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

I THINK I HAD MR. BAIRD POP UP HIS SCREEN, SO I'M NOT SURE IF MR. BAIRD HAD A QUESTION OR IF HE JUST ACCIDENTALLY HIT THE VIDEO BUTTON.

MR. BAIRD, ARE YOU STILL THERE? MAYBE I'M SEEING THINGS, COUNCILLOR PEARCE.

THANK YOU, YOUR WORSHIP THROUGH YOU.

I DON'T WANT TO DWELL ON THE CURRENT DEBATE, BUT I DO WANT SOME CLARIFICATION, IF I COULD, FROM PAUL AND FROM THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT COUNCIL CAN HOLD IN CAMERA MEETINGS VIA ZOOM, AND IT'S A FAIRLY IMPORTANT ONE FOR ME, I WAS RECENTLY INJURED IN AN ACCIDENT AND I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO SIT FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

AND I'M ALSO A HIGH RISK FOR COVID.

AND I DON'T REALLY FEEL LIKE QUITE FRANKLY, SITTING AROUND THE COUNCIL TABLE WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

I BELIEVE THERE'S ONE OTHER COUNCILLOR THAT ALSO HAS DIFFICULTY WITH THIS.

SO MY QUESTION IS, SINCE WE BOTH WE ALL WANT TO PARTICIPATE.

BUT IF THE COUNCIL IS GOING TO HAVE A CLOSED SESSION, CAN THAT CLOSED SESSION BE VIA ZOOM? SHORT ANSWER IS YES.

AND THERE'S NOTHING TO PREVENT IT.

IT'S THE DECISION OF COUNCIL.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR COUNCIL TO HOST CLOSED SESSIONS ELECTRONICALLY.

THE SAME GOES FOR REGULAR COUNCIL MEETINGS, BUT THEY DO HAVE THE OPTION TO DO BOTH ELECTRONICALLY.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I'M NOT SURE.

I'M NOT SURE I AGREE WITH THAT.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THERE WAS A RESOLUTION WHICH SAID YOU CANNOT HOLD CLOSED MEETINGS AND UNTIL IN PERSON.

AND SO YOU HAD A CLOSED MEETING IN PERSON.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S VALID.

AND AGAIN, I'M NOT THE CITY SOLICITOR.

I DON'T LIKE TO GIVE OPINIONS ON PROCEDURE.

I'M NOT QUESTIONING THAT, SIR.

I'M JUST ASKING IN BROAD TERMS. AS PER THE MUNICIPAL ACT YES.

BUT I AGREE WITH THANK YOU.

OK.

SO DOES ANY OF OUR COMMITTEE MEMBERS HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? IF YOU DO POP OPEN YOUR VIDEO SO WE CAN SEE YOU HERE.

NOT SEEING ANY.

DID, KATHY, DID YOU HAVE MORE TIME TO ADD TO THE MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND

[00:45:06]

I JUST WANT TO ON BEHALF OF PAUL AND MYSELF, I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU FOR INVITING US.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAPPY TO.

WE WILL STICK AROUND FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE PRESENTATION.

SO WE'LL STILL BE HERE TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS LATER.

AND I YOU HAVE PAUL'S CONTACT INFORMATION THERE.

IF ANY COUNCIL MEMBER HAS ANY QUESTIONS, THEY'RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO REACH OUT TO PAUL AT A LATER DATE AS WELL.

SO THANK YOU BOTH AGAIN FOR FOR ATTENDING.

COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION? I HAVE QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS, AND I KNOW MR. SWAYZE IS GOING TO DO A PRESENTATION WITH US AND WE'RE GOING TO BE LINGERING HERE MANY HOURS, BECAUSE EACH ONE OF THESE QUESTIONS IS GOING TO CREATE A LONG DEBATE, SO POTENTIALLY I MAY HAVE TO GET A HOLD OF PAUL.

LIKE THERE'S SEVERAL ISSUES THAT I WOULD LIKE CLARIFICATION ON, LIKE, IF OUR INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER SAYS THAT STAFF CAN CONTACT OUR CITY SOLICITOR.

OUR CITY SOLICITOR BY RESOLUTION WE HAVEN'T DEALT WITH THEM FOR NEARLY A YEAR AND WE'RE GETTING LEGAL OPINIONS FROM A MULTITUDE OF LAW FIRMS, AND THIS ISN'T DONE BY RESOLUTION, THEY'RE NOT APPOINTED AS THE CITY SOLICITOR.

SO IT'S MAINLY PROCESS ISSUES THAT I'M HAVING PROBLEMS WITH.

AND SO I DON'T KNOW IF DO YOU'S JUST WANT TO ANSWER THEM HERE OR DO YOU WANT ME TO CONTACT YOU'S AFTER THE FACT? I MEAN, FOR ME AND INTEREST OF TIME I COULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU WE COULD PROBABLY HAVE A CONVERSATION OFFLINE WHERE WE COULD MAYBE DELVE INTO SOME OF THE ADDITIONAL DETAIL HERE.

AND I MIGHT BE ABLE TO PROVIDE YOU WITH SOME ADDITIONAL MATERIAL OR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AT THAT TIME IF THAT WORKS FOR YOU.

AND GIVEN THE FACT THAT MR. SWAYZE ALSO HAS A PRESENTATION TO DELIVER, SOME OF THOSE ISSUES MAY BE ANSWERED IN HIS PRESENTATION AS WELL SO I OFFER THAT.

IT WOULD WORK.

SOLICITOR, IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHO YOU CONSULT WITH.

IF YOU CONSULT WITH A SOLICITOR ON THE MATTER, THEN HE IS THE CITY SOLICITOR AND HE WILL GIVE YOU AN OPINION.

BUT DO THEY NOT HAVE TO BE APPOINTED BY BYLAW.

NOT IF COUNCIL AUTHORIZES THE APPROACH TO THE SOLICITOR FOR AN OPINION.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT, IS COUNCIL IT HASN'T COME TO COUNCIL, ITS STAFF GOING OUT TO SOLICITORS TO GET OPINIONS OR DOCUMENTATION WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF COUNCIL AS A WHOLE.

I THINK THE CAO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO GO TO ANY SOLICITOR AND GET AN OPINION WITHOUT COUNCIL.

EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT OK, SO THEY CAN GO TO ANY LAWYERS WITHOUT COUNCIL'S.

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE OPINION MUST COME BACK TO COUNCIL? AND COUNCIL CAN DEAL WITH IT.

OK.

WELL, THE OPINION IS COUNCILS AND JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, OUR CAO HAS PROVIDED A LIST OF MULTIPLE DIFFERENT LEGAL REPRESENTATIVES FOR THE MUNICIPALITY, INCLUDING WHAT THEY WOULD BE USED FOR.

SO WE DO HAVE A LIST PROVIDED I BELIEVE IT WAS PROVIDED ABOUT A YEAR AGO.

SO WE KNOW THAT IF IT'S QUESTIONS ABOUT PROCEDURE, AND MUNICIPAL ACT, IT MAY BE THIS LAWYER OR THIS LAWYER.

IF IT'S HAVING TO DO WITH PROPERTY ISSUES OR SO ON AND SO FORTH IT MAY BE THIS LAWYER, OR THIS LAWYER.

SO WE DO HAVE THIS LIST AND IT ALSO IS IN THE CAO'S MANDATE TO GET CLARIFICATION ON PROCEDURAL ISSUES, POLICY ISSUES, GETTING LEGAL OPINIONS.

BUT THOSE OPINIONS ARE OWNED BY US, CORRECT? YES.

AND I THINK YOU RAISE A GOOD POINT THERE.

I THINK THAT THE MORE OF THIS KIND OF STUFF YOU CAN FORMALIZE IN THE FORM OF A POLICY OR A WRITTEN DOCUMENT, THE LESS LIKELIHOOD THERE IS FOR THE CA OR ANYBODY ELSE ACTING IN A WAY THAT COUNCIL MAY NOT BE AUTHORIZED.

SO IF I COULD GO A LITTLE DEEPER INTO THAT, I'M SORRY, BUT SO HERE'S A FOR INSTANCE, WE HAD AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM SWAN, THAT WAS WORKING ON BEHALF OF COUNCILLORS AS THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER,

[00:50:01]

BUT THEN CUNNINGHAM, SWAN, THOSE SAME LAWYERS WERE DOING WORK FOR THE MUNICIPALITY THROUGH STAFF.

WE HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

AND I PUT A NOTICE OF MOTION WE'VE REMOVED CUNNINGHAM SWAN WAS THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

WE'VE GONE BACK TO MR. SWAYZE, BUT WE'RE NOW BACK INTO THE SAME PREDICAMENT WHERE WE HAVE A COUNCILLOR THAT'S IN FRONT OF A COURT USING A LAWYER AND THE MUNICIPALITY IS USING THAT SAME LAWYER TO DO WORK FOR THE MUNICIPALITY AND THERE'S NO RESOLUTION OR BYLAW OF COUNCIL TO USE THAT LAWYER.

SO NOW WE HAVE A LAWYER THAT'S WORKING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE WITHOUT COUNCIL'S KNOWLEDGE.

NOT EVERYBODY ON COUNCIL KNOWS THAT THAT'S TRANSPIRING, SO COUNCIL SHOULD BE ABLE TO APPOINT OR MAKE SURE WE KNOW WHO THOSE LAWYERS ARE, THAT EVERYBODY IS [INAUDIBLE] SHOULD WE NOT AS A COUNCIL, HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THAT IS, WHO THOSE LAWYERS ARE? IF THE QUESTION IS MINE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ONCE THE OPINION FROM ANY LAWYER COMES BACK TO COUNCIL, YOU COULD DEAL WITH IT AT THAT TIME.

YOU CAN SAY WE DON'T WANT THIS LAWYER AND WE DON'T AGREE WITH THAT OPINION.

BUT THE CAO HAS TO HAVE AUTHORITY TO GIVE LEGAL ADVICE.

OH, NO, I TOTALLY APPRECIATE THAT.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT, MR. SWAYZE, THAT'S IMPERATIVE BECAUSE NONE OF US ARE LAWYERS AND NOR IS OUR CAO AND WE DON'T EXPECT HIM TO BE.

THE ISSUE THAT I RAISE IS THE FACT THAT SHOULD IT NOT BE AN APPOINTED THROUGH RESOLUTION BECAUSE WE'RE SPENDING MONEY SOMEWHERE LIKE YOU HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THE MUNICIPALITY FOR THE WORK THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO WITH US.

SHOULD WE NOT HAVE THAT WITH EVERY OTHER LAWYER? I DON'T KNOW WHO.

I'M SURE THE CAO HAS A BUDGET FOR LEGAL FEES.

OK.

YEAH THIS IS NOT AN EASY ANSWER.

SORRY, IT'S NOT AN EASY ANSWER.

THERE'S THINGS LIKE YOUR PROCUREMENT POLICY THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT.

THERE'S THINGS LIKE DELEGATION POLICIES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT AS WELL.

AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR US, EVEN AS MUNICIPAL MINISTERY OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING, TO GIVE YOU ANY SORT OF DEFINITIVE ANSWER ON IT.

MY ONLY ADVICE WOULD BE TO SIT DOWN WITH COUNCIL AND YOUR CAO AND LOOK TO WHERE IT SPECIFICALLY ALREADY SAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS OR, YOU KNOW, AUTHORITY GIVEN TO HIM.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I LOOK AT THE ROLE OF THE CAO, IT'S EXERCISING GENERAL CONTROL AND MANAGEMENT OF THE AFFAIRS OF THE MUNICIPALITY FOR THE PURPOSES OF ENSURING THE EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE OPERATION.

SO THAT INCLUDES, YOU KNOW, GIVING GOOD ADVICE TO COUNCIL.

SO I THINK IT'S YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE WORTHWHILE, YOU ALL HAVING A DISCUSSION AND, YOU KNOW, YOU BRINGING FORWARD THE IDEA THAT YOU DO HAVE A LIST GENERATED BY RESOLUTION, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT, AND LETTING COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, DECIDE ON THAT, IF THAT IS THE CASE .

YOU KNOW, BUT IT'S DIFFICULT FOR US TO SAY ANY MORE THAN THAT AT THIS TIME.

THANK YOU, KATHY, JUST ADDING TO THAT NOTE, AND I HAVE SEEN COUNCILLOR TURNER HAS A QUESTION, TOO, SOMETIMES IT'S NOT THE ISSUE OF WHO'S SOLICITING THE ADVICE, IT'S THE ADVICE BEING GIVEN THAT INDIVIDUALS DON'T LIKE.

AND I'VE SEEN YEARS AGO WE RECEIVED LEGAL ADVICE.

AN INDIVIDUAL DIDN'T LIKE THAT LEGAL ADVICE WANTED A SECOND OPINION.

SO WE RECEIVED A SECOND OPINION, DID NOT LIKE THAT OPINION EITHER.

SO WE HAD A MEETING WHERE WE HAD TWO OTHER LEGAL TEAMS ON SCREEN VIA SKYPE AT THE TIME GIVING THE EXACT SAME OPINION AND THE INDIVIDUALS STILL SAY, I'M RIGHT, I DON'T CARE WHAT ALL THESE FOUR LEGAL TEAMS HAVE TOLD US, I'M STILL RIGHT AND WE NEED TO FIRE ALL THESE PEOPLE.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE SPENT MONEY.

WE NEED OUR MONEY BACK BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T HAVE PAID THEM TO GIVE US THIS ADVICE.

SOMETIMES IT'S JUST AN INDIVIDUAL ISN'T HAPPY WITH THE ADVICE THAT'S BEING GIVEN.

IT'S NOT WHO'S LISTED, WHO'S GIVING IT, IT'S JUST NOT HAPPY WITH THE ADVICE, I'VE BEEN NOT HAPPY WITH THE ADVICE I'VE RECEIVED IN THE PAST TWO, BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS.

AND AGAIN, I RECALLED MR. GAGNON HAS PROVIDED A LIST TO COUNCIL.

IF WE NEED TO SOLIDIFY THAT THROUGH RESOLUTION, IT KIND OF TIES OUR HANDS IN SOME AREAS.

BUT THERE IS MULTIPLE DIFFERENT LEGAL TEAMS THAT THE MUNICIPALITY DEALS WITH FOR MULTIPLE DIFFERENT REASONS.

COUNCILLOR TURNER.

THANK YOU.

AND JUST TO MENTION THAT WE HAVE A GREAT NUMBER OF THE MEMBERS OF OUR ADVISORY COMMITTEES ONLINE HERE AND WE'RE GETTING DOWN INTO THE WEEDS ON SPECIFICS OF

[00:55:01]

AGAIN, BACK TO WHERE WE WERE A FEW MINUTES AGO, THANKING PAUL AND KATHY FOR YOUR TIME AND OUR SECOND PRESENTATION FROM MR. SWAYZE, I'M SURE THEY'LL BE QUESTIONS FROM

[4.2. Presentation by Integrity Commissioner]

NICE SEEING YOU AGAIN.

IT'S BEEN A BEEN A FEW YEARS, ACTUALLY.

SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR.

THE 20 MINUTES FOR THE MINISTRY OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS HAS NOW TURNED INTO AN HOUR OR SO.

I PLAN TO BE AN HOUR, WHICH, IF I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS, WILL BE MORE THAN THAT.

I JUST HOPE I CAN KEEP YOUR ATTENTION.

IN ANY EVENT.

GOOD EVENING AND EVERYONE, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

MY PRESENTATION WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH 4 THINGS, MY APPROACH TO THE VARIOUS ETHICAL RULES IN CODES OF CONDUCT AND MY APPROACH IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE I'M THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER AND YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW I VIEW THESE SECTIONS OF THE CODE.

THEN SECONDLY, THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES OR THE NON RULES THAT YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WITH ME.

YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEM WITH THE ELECTORATE.

CERTAINLY THE MOTHERHOOD STATEMENTS AND THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES ARE NECESSARY IN OUR CODE.

I APPLY THEM, BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY REQUIRE YOU TO YOU WILL UNDERSTAND AS I GO THROUGH THE PRESENTATION.

THIRDLY, WHEN AND HOW I CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION OF A COMPLAINT OF THE PROCEDURAL SECTIONS OF THE CODE.

AND THEN FINALLY, THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT, WHICH IS A NEW JURISDICTION AS OF LAST YEAR FOR INTEGRITY COMMISSIONERS.

I HAVE BEEN AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER FOR THE PAST ALMOST 13 YEARS, STARTING WITH OAKVILLE IN 2008.

SINCE THEN, I'VE HAD APPROXIMATELY PROBABLY MORE THAN 50 CLIENT MUNICIPALITIES.

CURRENTLY I HAVE TWENTY NINE DIFFERENT MUNICIPALITIES SPREAD ALL OVER THE PROVINCE.

SO I COULD ASK, HOW COULD YOU SERVE AS AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER FOR 29 MUNICIPALITIES? AND THE ANSWER IS THE LEVEL OF ACTIVITY IS LOW.

IT'S NOT GUARANTEED.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE ACTIVITY IS COMING FROM, FOR EXAMPLE.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

MY MOST ACTIVE CLIENTS WERE MISSISSAUGA IN 2016 THAT WAS SEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.

IN 2017, IT WAS WASAGA BEACH WHICH IS MUCH SMALLER.

2018, IT WAS PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY.

IN 2019, IT WAS GREATER SUDBURY AND 2020 IS ESPANOLA, AGAIN, A SMALL MUNICIPALITY.

MOST OF MY CLIENTS HAVE HAD FEW INVESTIGATIONS AND SOME HAVE HAD NONE.

YOU WILL LEARN THAT IF THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER DOESN'T SHOW UP, IT'S A GOOD THING.

ONE MAYOR IN WESTERN ONTARIO WAS QUOTED BY HIS HIS LOCAL NEWSPAPER.

HE SAID, I UNDERSTAND THIS MR. SWAYZE IS A NICE GUY.

I HOPE I NEVER MEET HIM.

SO THE WAY I CARRY OUT MY DUTIES, I RESPOND ONLY TO COMPLAINTS OR DIRECTION FROM COUNCIL.

I DON'T PATROL I DON'T READ YOUR LOCAL NEWSPAPERS UNLESS THERE'S A COMPLAINT.

MANY COMPLAINTS I RECEIVE ARE BASED ON CONFUSION.

I GET SO MANY COMPLAINTS THAT ARE BASED ON CONFUSION AND SOME OF THEM ARE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

AND I DISMISSED MORE THAN 50 PERCENT OF THE COMPLAINTS I RECEIVE WITH A FIVE MINUTE EMAIL.

I HAVE HAD COMPLAINTS AGAINST THE DOGCATCHER, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND OF COURSE, I HAVE NO JURISDICTION OVER STAFF AT ALL, BUT I ONLY DEAL WITH MEMBERS OF COUNCIL AND MEMBERS OF LOCAL BOARDS.

NOW, BEFORE WE GET INTO MY SLIDES.

LET ME SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE.

I HAVE THE GREATEST OF RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO SERVE ON COUNCIL, GIVING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY, SERVING THE COMMUNITY LOW SALARY.

AND I ALWAYS, WHEN I RECEIVE CRITICISM OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL I ALWAYS SAY TO

[01:00:04]

I KNOW I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

IT MUST ABSOLUTELY CHANGE YOUR LIFE.

AND I CAN SAY THAT MOST COUNCILS REGARD A CODE OF CONDUCT AS A GOOD THING.

I CAN ALSO SAY THAT MY CLIENTS, ALMOST ALL OF THEM, REGARD MY DECISIONS AS BEING VERY REASONABLE AND THAT I USE COMMON SENSE.

AND I'M GOING TO TRY TO SHARE MY SCREEN HERE, AS PAUL WAS ABLE TO DO.

THERE WE GO.

ALL I HAVE IS MY SCREEN.

ON THE BOTTOM THERE, ROBERT, THERE SHOULD BE A BUTTON THAT SAYS SHARE SCREEN, YEAH I'VE DONE THAT.

OK YOU MEAN, I'M NOT SHARING.

NO.

AND THEN THERE SHOULD BE ANOTHER ITEM THAT COMES UP AND ASKS YOU WHICH SCREEN YOU WANT TO SHARE SO SELECT THE SCREEN YOU WANT TO SHARE.

AND THEN CLICK SHARE THAT.

OK, SO I CLICK ON THE SCREEN.

CLICK ON THE SCREEN THAT YOU WANT TO SHARE.

AND THEN SHARE.

OH, I GOT IT NOW.

THERE YOU GO.

NOW I'VE GOT THE PARTICIPANTS, HERE.

OK, THAT'S GOOD.

PERFECT.

OH, NOT EVERYBODY IS ON MY SIDE, THE CARICATURE YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN IS I LIKE TO CHARACTERIZE IT AS ME BEING AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER, SWEEPING UP EVIL.

BUT IN FACT, IT WAS PREPARED BY AN ARTIST LADY WHO WAS PART OF A ENTOURAGE OF A COUNCILLOR THAT I IMPOSED SOME SANCTIONS ON.

IN FACT, WHAT SHE INTENDED WAS, I'M SWEEPING UP GLASS THAT I HAVE BROKEN.

SO I ENFORCE ONLY BY RECOMMENDATIONS TO COUNCIL, BUT NOW I HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE A BREACH OF THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT TO COURT, I COULD DO THAT ON MY OWN WITHOUT REFERENCE TO COUNCIL, EXCEPT THE REQUIREMENT TO NOTIFY COUNCIL.

STILL, THOUGH, I HAVE NO ORIGINAL DECISION POWER, ESSENTIALLY, I WOULD ONLY RECOMMEND SANCTIONS TO COUNCIL OR I PRESENT A CASE TO COURT.

NOW I ALWAYS START WITH THE MOST COMMON MISTAKE MADE BY MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

IF THE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT THAT I WANT TO GIVE TO YOU IS THAT COUNCIL IS ALL POWERFUL, INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL HAVE ONLY ONE VOTE.

THAT INCLUDES THE MAYOR.

NOW, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES, AND YOU MAY REALIZE WHICH MUNICIPALITIES I'M TALKING ABOUT, EVERY CONCEPT I GIVE YOU, I'M GOING TO TRY TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE WHERE I'VE ACTUALLY DONE AN INVESTIGATION.

SO HERE'S THIS IS EARLY ON WHEN I WAS INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER FOR SEVERAL MUNICIPALITIES.

A MAYOR WHO WAS ELECTED, WHO HAD BEEN THE CEO OF A MAJOR CORPORATION.

AND HE HAPPENED TO KNOW A COLLEAGUE OF MINE IN THE CITY OF TORONTO WHO WAS A MUNICIPAL LAWYER.

AND HE WANTED HIS ADVICE.

HE SUDDENLY BECAME MAYOR.

HE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT POWERS HE HAS, WHAT HE SHOULD BE DOING, ETC., ETC..

THIS FELLOW DIDN'T RETURN HIS CALL AND IT TOOK HIM ABOUT THREE DAYS TO FINALLY TALK TO HIM.

AND THE MUNICIPAL LAWYER SAID, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY POWER.

YOU HAVE ONE VOTE.

AND THAT'S THE MESSAGE THAT I WANT TO GET ACROSS TO ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

[01:05:01]

SO A COUNCILLOR WANTS TO MAKE A CHANGE.

THE COUNCILLOR THINKS, WAIT A MINUTE, I REPORT TO THE PEOPLE.

STAFF DON'T REPORT TO THE PEOPLE.

WHAT HAPPENS IS STAFF, OF COURSE, WILL BE POLITE, SUGGESTS THAT THEY WRITE A REPORT TO COUNCIL ON THE CHANGE.

THE REPORT, OF COURSE, TRASHES YOUR IDEA AND YOU ARE NOT HAPPY.

DON'T DO THIS.

DON'T DO THIS.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT STAFF ALWAYS KNOW BEST, BUT RATHER YOU HAVE NO POWER TO DIRECT MANAGEMENT UNLESS YOU HAVE A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL ON SIDE.

SO THE MESSAGE IS USE YOUR ENERGY TO PERSUADE A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, DON'T START YELLING AT STAFF.

IN YOUR PERSUASION OF MEMBERS AND YOU COULD MEET WITH INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS, YOU COULD TALK TO ANY MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME TRAINERS AND SOME CLERKS WHO SAID, WELL, YOU CAN'T TALK TO OTHER MEMBERS OF COUNCIL BECAUSE YOU BREAK THE RULES.

WELL, IT'S NOT TRUE.

YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF THE CLOSED MEETING RULES.

IF YOU ARE WITH A QUORUM OF COUNCIL, SAY, FOR DINNER, YOU CAN'T TALK BUSINESS OR YOU'LL BE ACCUSED OF HAVING A CLOSED MEETING AND YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT.

THEN LAST YEAR, THERE WAS A CASE ALSO THAT YOU SHOULD BE AWARE OF WHERE A MEMO FROM A COUNCILLOR ADDRESSED TO ALL COUNCIL WAS RULED TO BE A CLOSED MEETING BECAUSE OF THE REPLY ALL FEATURE, WHICH WAS REPEATEDLY USED IN THAT CASE.

SO IT WAS RULED AS A VIRTUAL MEETING.

SO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T SEND A MEETING TO ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

BUT IF THERE'S A BUNCH OF REPLY ALL'S, BE CAREFUL.

IT MIGHT BE DEEMED TO BE A MEETING.

NOW THE MUNICIPALITY IS A COMPLICATED CORPORATION TO RUN, AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT BE MANAGED BY PROFESSIONALS WITH EXPERIENCE, THEY ARE HIRED ON THAT BASIS ON THAT EXPERIENCE AND THEIR EDUCATION.

IN FACT, I'M ABLE TO SAY THAT IN MY OPINION.

THERE'S A GREATER CHALLENGE FOR STAFF RUNNING A MUNICIPALITY THAN THERE IS FOR THE PROVINCE, AND I KNOW WE HAVE SOME REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PROVINCE HERE THAT MAY BE SURPRISED AT THAT.

BUT IMAGINE IF MUNICIPALITIES COULD HAVE A CABINET WHERE THE MAYOR CAN APPOINT MEMBERS ALL LOYAL TO HIM AND THAT CABINET HAS POWER.

HONESTLY, MUNICIPALITIES SOMETIMES TURN OUT TO BE LIKE THE WILD WEST, COUNCILLORS REPORT TO NO ONE EXCEPT THEIR CONSTITUENTS, AND IT CAN BE A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

WE'LL GET INTO MORE OF THIS WHEN I DEAL WITH STAFF VIOLATIONS OF THE CODE.

NOW THE POWER OF THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL WAS SOMETHING I WANT TO DEAL WITH, AND I'M GLAD PAUL QUALIFIED THE MAYOR AS CEO.

NO COURT HAS EVER CALLED THE MAYOR A CEO IN THE SENSE OF A PRIVATE CORPORATION.

AND I LIKE WHAT PAUL CALLED IT.

HE CALLED IT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD.

AND THAT'S TRUE.

YOU'RE ENTITLED TO BE THE CHAIR OF THE COUNCIL.

NOW, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF ONE MUNICIPALITY THAT WENT TERRIBLY WRONG.

THREE SENIOR STAFF RESIGNED, BLAMING THE MAYOR FOR HARASSMENT.

THEY FILED A COMPLAINT WITH ME, THE CAO OBTAINED A LAWYER BECAUSE SHE WAS CONSIDERING AN ACTION FOR CONSTRUCTIVE DISMISSAL.

AFTER THE ELECTION, WHICH THE MAYOR [INAUDIBLE] FOUR MORE SENIOR STAFF HAVE RESIGNED AND THEY WERE LEFT WITHOUT A CAO.

THIS WAS A FEW YEARS AGO, BUT IT WAS A SERIOUS, SERIOUS PROBLEM.

THE MAYOR WAS THE MAYOR FOR MANY YEARS, HE WAS COMPLETELY IN CHARGE.

HE DIRECTED STAFF WITHOUT REFERENCE TO COUNCIL, HAD A MEETING ALONE WITH THE CAO ON EVERY COUNCIL AGENDA, CALLING IN STAFF TO CHANGE REPORTS BEFORE THEY REACHED ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

PERSONALLY, DOING ALL THE LABOR NEGOTIATIONS AND A STRING OF CAO'S FOR SEVERAL YEARS, LET HIM GET AWAY WITH IT.

YOU HAD A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION ONLY NOT THAT'S NOT A PROBLEM, BUT HE

[01:10:01]

IF ANY STAFF MEMBER CROSSED THEM, HE WOULD PUNISH THEM IN VARIOUS WAYS.

HE RULED BY FEAR.

SO I WROTE A REPORT AND THIS IS A QUOTE FROM MY REPORT.

AND I'M GOING TO READ IT.

IN MY OPINION, THE RATIONALE FOR THE ONTARIO MUNICIPAL SYSTEM IS THAT A MUNICIPALITY MUST BE MANAGED BY PROFESSIONAL MANAGERS HIRED FOR THE PURPOSE, WHO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION TO SUCCEED IN THE INCREASED CHALLENGES FACING MUNICIPALITIES TODAY.

HOWEVER, THOSE MANAGERS MUST BE MADE TO KEEP THE VALUES AND MORES OF THE COMMUNITY IN THE FOREFRONT.

THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED BY PLACING AN ELECTED COUNCIL IN CHARGE.

IT IS CRITICAL, IN MY VIEW, THAT A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL GUIDED BY RECOMMENDATIONS FROM PROFESSIONALS IS IN CHARGE AND NOT AN AUTOCRATIC MAYOR WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF COUNCIL.

NOW, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POWER OF THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL.

THIS WAS A MEMBER OF A COUNCIL CLIENT OF MINE HAD SOME HRR EXPERIENCE AND SAT DOWN WITH TWO OTHER COUNCILLORS, THEY DECIDED THAT THERE ARE SIX STAFF POSITIONS THAT ARE SURPLUS TO THE NEEDS OF A MUNICIPALITY.

TWO OF THESE POSITIONS WERE FILLED AND 4 VACANT.

THE THREE ASKED FOR A CLOSED SESSION AND PERSUADED COUNCIL THAT THE POSITION SHOULD BE ELIMINATED AND TWO PERSONS FIRED.

THIS WAS A SURPRISE TO THE CAO.

HE ASKED FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK INTO IT AND TO WRITE A REPORT FOR THE NEXT MEETING.

IS REPORT OF THE NEXT MEETING DISAGREED, SO THEY FIRED HIM ALSO.

NOW, FIRING THE CAO HAPPENS, IT'S NOT PLEASANT, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN, EXCEPT THAT IN THIS CASE, THEY HAD NO INTENTION TO REPLACE HIM.

AND I ACTUALLY GOT A COMPLAINT ABOUT NO CAO.

[INAUDIBLE] COMPLAINING THAT THERE WAS NO CAO.

I INVESTIGATED AND FOUND THE STAFF WERE DOING THEIR BEST TO HAVE MEETINGS WITHOUT A LEADER AND ACHIEVE CONSENSUS.

THIS TROUBLED ME GREATLY EVERY BUSINESS GROUP NEEDS A LEADER.

BUT HOW DO I GO AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF COUNCIL? I REPORT TO COUNCIL.

ALSO, THE MUNICIPAL ACT REQUIRES A CLERK AND TREASURER, BUT NOT A CAO, AS PAUL INDICATED.

I ALSO TOOK THIS TO TO OUR ASSOCIATION, MUNICIPAL INTEGRITY COMMISSIONS OF ONTARIO, WITHOUT NAMING THE MUNICIPALITY.

WE ALL AGREED THAT I COULD DO NOTHING.

I HAD TO DISMISS THE COMPLAINT.

IT SHOWS HOW POWERFUL A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL IS.

I DID HAVE A LEADER WORKSHOP WITH HIS COUNCIL AND TOLD THAT IF ANY MEMBER OF COUNCIL HAD TRIED TO CHAIR STAFF MEETINGS OR EVEN ATTEND THEM, I WOULD HAVE COME DOWN ON THAT MEMBER.

IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS A LINE BETWEEN STAFF AND COUNCIL AND IT SHOULD BE PRESERVED.

YOU SEE THAT IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED, VERY COMPLICATED BOTH TO BE A STAFF MEMBER AND A COUNCIL MEMBER.

THERE ARE A LOT OF LEGISLATION INVOLVED AND ALL OF THESE ACTS GOVERN THE CONDUCT OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

NOW I WANT TO ACTUALLY SAVE THAT.

SO IT'S VERY COMPLICATED YOU CAN ASK STAFF FOR ADVICE.

THEY ARE THE EXPERTS, BUT THEY MIGHT HAVE A CONFLICTING IN ADVISING, CERTAINLY UNDER FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND FIPPA.

THEY CAN ADVISE, BUT NOT UNDER THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT.

AND SOME PARTS OF THE MUNICIPAL ACT.

ONE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER YOU CAN ASK ME ADVICE ANY TIME.

I AM THE BEST ADVISER ON THE CODE OF CONDUCT OBVIOUSLY.

NOW, THE MUNICIPAL ACT LAST YEAR REQUIRES ALL ADVICE TO BE IN WRITING BUT I'LL TAKE YOUR PHONE CALL, I'LL TALK TO YOU, AND I WILL ALWAYS ASK YOU TO SEND ME AN EMAIL REQUESTING ADVICE BEFORE I GIVE THAT ADVICE IN WRITING.

NOW, I WANT TO DEAL WITH MOST CODES OF CONDUCT HAVE GENERAL PRINCIPLES.

[01:15:26]

THE BEHAVIOR AND ACTIONS OF MEMBERS IS EXPECTED TO REFLECT THE PRINCIPLES OF ACCOUNTABILITY, TRANSPARENCY AND PUBLIC TRUST.

ADHERENCE TO THESE STANDARDS WILL PROTECT AND MAINTAIN THE CITY'S REPUTATION.

HERE'S MORE.

A KEY STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE, UNDERLINE [INAUDIBLE] OF THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS OF THE COUNCIL IS OPEN, ACCESSIBLE AND EQUITABLE AND RESPECTS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

NOW, THESE GENERAL PRINCIPLES ARE ENFORCED BY ME.

THEY'RE IMPORTANT TO SET THE TONE OF THE CODE.

BUT HOW DO I ENFORCE IT? THAT'S THE QUESTION.

FORTUNATELY, THERE WAS A LEGAL OPINION GIVEN TO THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER IN THE CITY OF TORONTO.

AND IT SAID, THEREFORE, WE CONCLUDE THAT THE STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES OF THE CODE OF CONDUCT DO NOT PROVIDE AN INDEPENDENT OR STAND ALONE SET OF OBLIGATIONS, THE ALLEGED VIOLATION OF WHICH CAN BE THE PROPER SUBJECT OF AN INVESTIGATION BY THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

I AGREE WITH THIS.

I AGREE WITH HIS OPINION.

I'LL GIVE YOU SOME EXAMPLES.

THE BEST EXAMPLE I'VE HAD SO MANY OF THESE IS MY WARD COUNCILLOR WON'T RETURN MY CALLS.

SO IN THE EARLY DAYS OF BEING AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER, YOU LOOK AT THE CODE AND SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, THIS IS THIS COUNSELOR HAS TO RESPECT HIS CONSTITUENTS AND HE'S NOT SHOWING RESPECT IF HE'S NOT RETURNING HIS CALLS.

SO YOU SERVE HIM WITH THE COMPLAINT, ASK FOR HIM TO RESPOND IN 10 DAYS, HE DOESN'T GET BACK TO YOU IN 10 DAYS.

HE CALLS YOU THE SAME DAY AND SAYS, THIS GUY IS CRAZY.

IF I RETURN ALL HIS CALLS, I WON'T HAVE ANY TIME TO DO ANYTHING.

AND THEN YOU SIT BACK AND YOU SAY, WELL, I GUESS A COUNSELOR SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

BUT HOW DO I DISMISS THE COMPLAINT? I CAN'T CALL THEM CRAZY.

WELL, FORTUNATELY, I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO USE THIS LEGAL OPINION.

ANOTHER ONE DILIGENCE, SOME CODES TALK ABOUT DILIGENCE, AND THERE WAS AN A NAME OF A CONFERENCE THIS IS ABOUT GOING BACK ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO WHEN A COUNCILLOR WAS THE CHAIR OF A COMMITTEE AND THE MAYOR HAD SET UP A MEETING WITH THE MINISTER OF THE PROVINCE TO MEET WITH HIM OR HER ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF THIS CHAIR [INAUDIBLE] SUBJECT TO THIS COMMITTEE, AND SHE SKIPPED IT.

SHE HAD DINNER WITH HER HUSBAND AND SKIPPED THE MEETING.

OF COURSE, I HAD A COMPLAINT ABOUT HOW SHE'S NOT DILIGENT.

WELL, AGAIN, I HAVE TO LEAVE SOME THINGS.

THAT'S A GENERAL PRINCIPLE.

I HAVE TO LEAVE SOME THINGS TO THE ELECTORATE.

SO IF SHE'S LAZY AND DOESN'T DO ANY WORK, SHE'S NOT GOING TO GET VOTED IN NEXT TIME.

THE SAME WITH SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T RETURN CALLS.

SO PARTS OF THE CODE OF CONDUCT I LEAVE TO THE ELECTORATE.

SO I NEED TO HAVE THE COMPLAINT, WHICH ALLEGES BREAKING OF SPECIFIC RULES, AND I'M GOING TO TAKE YOU THROUGH ALL OF THOSE RULES.

WELL, I WANTED TO DEAL BRIEFLY WITH LOCAL BOARDS.

I WAS SURPRISED THAT BILL 68 REQUIRED ALL MUNICIPALITIES TO HAVE CODES WHICH APPLY TO LOCAL BOARDS.

VOLUNTEERING IS IMPORTANT TO MUNICIPALITY, AND THE CODE MIGHT BE REGARDED AS EXPOSURE TO EMBARRASSMENT.

IN MISSISSAUGA, I WAS ASKED TO PREPARE A SEPARATE CODE FOR LOCAL BOARDS, WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A VERY COMPLICATED EXERCISE.

I SPENT A YEAR DOING IT AND TRAINING MEMBERS OF LOCAL BOARDS.

I HAD TO DO TWO CODES, ONE FOR JUDICIAL COMMITTEES, ONE FOR ADVISORY COMMITTEES.

AND IN MY FIVE YEARS IN MISSISSAUGA, I NEVER HAD ONE COMPLAINT AGAINST A LOCAL

[01:20:08]

BUT IT'S THERE WE HAVE TO WE HAVE TO SUPPORT IT.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT YOUR VOTE LATER, BUT I CAME UP WITH THIS CLAUSE, RATHER THAN HAVE SEPARATE CODES OF CONDUCT FOR LOCAL BOARDS OR TRY TO INCORPORATE THEM, AND I CAME UP WITH THIS CLAUSE, WHICH, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

CODE APPLIES TO EVERY MEMBER THIS CODE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO ALL MEMBERS OF LOCAL BOARDS WHO ARE NOT MEMBERS OF COUNCIL WITH NECESSARY MODIFICATIONS APPLIED IN THE DISCRETION OF THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

SO I COULD DEAL WITH BIAS IN A JUDICIAL COMMITTEE.

I COULD DEAL WITH THE ADVISORY COMMITTEES.

I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME COMMITTEES LIKE I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE A TAXI COMMITTEE, BUT OFTEN THERE'S TAXI COMMITTEES AND OF COURSE, THEY ARE ALL TAXI OWNERS AND DRIVERS THAT ARE ON THE COMMITTEE.

OF COURSE, THEY ALL HAVE CONFLICTS THAT YOU WANT TO HEAR FROM THEM.

SO NOW, I'M GOING TO TAKE YOU THROUGH SEVEN RULES CONTAINED IN CODES WHICH I ENFORCE.

SOME OF THE SLIDES WILL BE EITHER THE SAME OR SIMILAR TO YOUR CODE, BUT NOT NECESSARILY.

AND I'LL GIVE YOU EXAMPLES AGAIN OVER THE PAST 12 YEARS OF DECISIONS I HAVE MADE, AND I HOPE YOU WILL AGREE THAT I AM VERY FAIR AND REASONABLE.

SO LET'S BEGIN.

I AM VERY CRITICAL FOR ANYONE WHO GOES INTO A CLOSED SESSION MEETING.

IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THAT ANYONE GOES INTO A CLOSED SESSION MEETING, THAT WHAT WAS DISCUSSED DOES NOT LEAVE THE ROOM.

THAT IS WHY IT'S CLOSED.

OBVIOUSLY, ALL REAL ESTATE ACQUISITIONS, LAWSUITS DEALING WITH PERSONNEL MATTERS, FIRING STAFF.

I HAVE HAD EXAMPLES OF SOME TERRIBLE DISCLOSURES OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.

ONE MUNICIPALITY I HAD A MEMBER OF COUNCIL WHO AND EVERYBODY NOTED THAT WHEN HE WAS IN CLOSED SESSION, HE ALWAYS HAD HIS PHONE SITTING ON THE DESK, HE WAS RECORDING ALL THE PROCEEDINGS.

AND THEN IT TURNS OUT HE PLAYED THOSE RECORDINGS, PARTS OF THEM TO A DEVELOPER, AND THEY WERE DISCUSSING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SITE ON THE SAME DEVELOPER.

WELL, A DEVELOPER FELL OUT OF BED WITH THE COUNCILLOR AND HE BROUGHT A COMPLAINT AND [INAUDIBLE] AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THAT'S WHAT HE DID.

HE WAS LISTENING TO CLOSED SESSION DISCUSSIONS ON TAPE.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, I RECOMMENDED 90 DAYS SALARY SUSPENSION.

ANOTHER ONE, AND YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT CONFIDENTIAL THINGS.

I HAD ONE CITIZEN WROTE A LETTER TO ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL.

IN HIS LETTER, THIS IS A TOWN IN WESTERN ONTARIO, WHICH HAS A HUGE PARK IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, AND IN AUGUST OF EVERY YEAR, THEY GIVE IT OVER TO BIKERS.

BIKERS TAKE OVER THE WHOLE TOWN AND THIS FELLOW, HE WAS A REAL ESTATE AGENT.

HE WROTE A LETTER TO ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, HE DIDN'T MARK IT CONFIDENTIAL.

BUT HE SAID, WHY DON'T WE HAVE AN EVENT THAT'S A LITTLE MORE FAMILY ORIENTED INSTEAD OF INVITING ALL THESE BIKERS AND IT DESTROYED HIS BUSINESS BECAUSE THE BIKERS TALKED TO HIS CLIENTS.

HE GOT VERY FEW LISTINGS BECAUSE THE BIKERS WOULD TALK TO THEM AND SAY, WE DON'T WANT YOU USING THIS REAL ESTATE AGENT SO THESE THINGS CAN HAPPEN.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY, OUTSIDE OF.

IT'S NOT NECESSARY FOR A COMPLAINANT TO PROVE THAT THE COUNCIL GAINED PRIVATE ADVANTAGE FROM THE DISCLOSURE, ANY DISCLOSURE IS WRONG.

COUNCIL CAN APPROVE DISCLOSURE THAT SOMETIMES HAPPENS WHERE YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN CAMERA AND THAT COMES BACK TO COUNCIL IN OPEN SESSION, AND THAT,

[01:25:03]

ANOTHER ASPECT THAT YOU SHOULD BE AWARE OF IS THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED ONLY TO INFORMATION RELEVANT TO YOUR DUTIES.

STAFF MAY REFUSE TO GIVE YOU BOTH CONFIDENTIAL AND PERSONAL INFORMATION IF IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DUTIES.

I WANT TO.

SO HERE'S THE SECTIONS YOU CAN'T DISCLOSE, RELEASE OR PUBLISHED BY ANY MEANS, INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA, ANY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION ACQUIRED BY VIRTUES OF YOUR OFFICE.

YOU CAN'T USE OBVIOUSLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION FOR PRIVATE GAIN.

NOW WE MOVE IN TO UNDUE USE OF INFLUENCE.

NO MEMBER SHALL USE THEIR STATUS AS A MEMBER OF COUNCIL TO IMPROPERLY INFLUENCE THE ACTIONS OR DECISIONS OF STAFF OR OTHERS TO THE PRIVATE ADVANTAGE OF MEMBER OR HIS OR HER FAMILY, EMPLOYEES OR BUSINESS ASSOCIATES.

NOW, THIS RULE SOME OF THE CODES USED CHOOSE THE WORD FRIENDS YOU CAN'T BENEFIT FRIENDS.

UNTIL I STOOD IN FRONT OF THE COUNCIL IN EASTERN ONTARIO AND ONE OF THE COUNCILLORS SAID.

THIS IS CONFUSING TO ME BECAUSE ALL OF MY CONSTITUENTS ARE MY FRIENDS, SO I TOOK OUT THE WORD FRIENDS.

BUT I HAVE RECOMMENDED SANCTIONS AGAINST SOMEBODY WHO BENEFITED A FRIEND.

THIS WAS A VERY CLOSE FRIEND OF A MEMBER OF COUNCIL WHO WAS A DEVELOPER, BUILT A BUILDING, LOST HIS FINANCING, BOARDED UP THE KIND OF UGLY START TO THE BUILDING AND LEFT IT THAT WAY FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

STAFF WERE TRYING DESPERATELY TO GET HIM TO TEAR IT DOWN.

AND THIS COUNCILLOR DID EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO FRUSTRATE STAFF.

THEY WERE VERY CLOSE FRIENDS AND ALSO THEIR DAUGHTER AND THEIR RESPECTIVE DAUGHTER AND SON WERE MARRIED.

SO IT WAS I DID RECOMMEND SANCTIONS AGAINST THAT COUNCILLOR.

EVEN THOUGH IT WAS JUST A FRIEND.

IT IS YOUR JOB TO USE YOUR INFLUENCE FOR YOUR CONSTITUENTS.

OBVIOUSLY, NOT TO YOUR PERSONAL ADVANTAGE, BUT DON'T WORRY ABOUT USING USE OF INFLUENCE FOR TO BENEFIT YOUR CONSTITUENTS.

THAT'S NORMAL.

IT'S WHEN YOU GO TOO FAR WITH TO BENEFIT YOURSELF OR TO BENEFIT SOMEBODY INAPPROPRIATELY, IT IS WRONG.

NOW I'M TRYING TO I GO THROUGH THIS, MR. MAYOR, AS QUICKLY AS I CAN, SO I DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE ENTIRE NIGHT WITH EVERYBODY AND I DON'T WANT TO LOSE.

I WANT TO HAVE SOME TIME AT THE END FOR QUESTIONS.

STAFF RELATIONS.

ONLY COUNCIL AS A WHOLE AND NO SINGLE MEMBER, INCLUDING THE MAYOR, HAS THE AUTHORITY TO DIRECT EMPLOYEES, APPROVE BUDGETS, POLICY AND OTHER SUCH MATTERS UNLESS SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZED BY COUNCIL.

SO AS WAS DISCUSSED EARLIER ON YOUR OWN, YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY OVER ANY STAFF MEMBER ANY DIRECTION TO STAFF MUST COME FROM COUNCIL.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN'T MEET WITH STAFF, ASK FOR INFORMATION AND DISCUSS ISSUES WITHIN THE TOWN.

THEY WILL BE VERY COOPERATIVE.

YOU CAN ALSO BE CRITICAL OF STAFF DO IT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND ON A SUPERVISORY LEVEL.

PLEASE DON'T YELL AT THE CROSSING GUARD.

THAT'S WHAT WE SAY.

SOME COUNCILS HAVE REQUIRED COUNCILLORS TO ONLY DEAL WITH THE CAO ON STAFF COMPLAINTS, BUT THAT HAPPENS IN SOME OF THE SMALLER MUNICIPALITIES.

IN OPEN MEETINGS, YOU CERTAINLY CAN DISAGREE WITH STAFF, YOU CAN ASK QUESTIONS, BUT TRY NOT TO BE CRITICAL OF THEIR PROFESSIONALISM OR TRY TO DO IT RESPECTFULLY.

THEY HAVE A REPUTATION TO WORRY ABOUT.

YOU COULD TAKE IT TO A SUPERVISOR, PREFERABLY AT A SENIOR LEVEL, A PROBLEM WITH STAFF OR IF IT'S SUPERVISOR DOESN'T SATISFY YOU, YOU CAN GO TO THE CAO, IF HE DOESN'T SATISFY YOU, THEN YOU CAN REQUEST A CLOSED SESSION TO DISCUSS A STAFF MEMBERS

[01:30:02]

YOU COULD DO ALL OF THAT.

JUST DON'T DO IT PUBLICLY.

OTHERWISE, I'LL COME DOWN ON YOU IF YOU DO.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

I HAD A COUNCILLOR, THIS IS AN OLDER CITY AND SHE WENT TO A COMMITTEE OF ADJUSTMENT MEETING AND SCREAMED AT STAFF, SHE WAS SO UPSET BECAUSE STAFF WERE PERSECUTING HER POOR LITTLE OLD LADY.

NOW, MY ADVICE TO YOU IS BEWARE OF FIGHTS BETWEEN ADJOINING NEIGHBORS, BACKYARD FIGHTS.

IT'S VERY RARE THAT ONE OF THEM IS AN ANGEL AND THE OTHER IS A VILLAIN.

THEY START SMALL.

THERE'S A FEW WORDS ACROSS THE FENCE.

THERE'S THIS THERE'S THAT.

IT GETS HEAVIER.

AND IT'S A TERRIBLE SITUATION.

IN FACT, IN PRIVATE PRACTICE, WHEN A CLIENT COMES TO ME SAYING, I WANT TO SUE MY NEIGHBOR, I SAID TO THEM, YOU HAVE TWO CHOICES.

YOU EITHER GO NEXT DOOR, KNOCK ON THE DOOR AND APOLOGIZE FOR ALL THE BAD THINGS YOU'VE SAID OR YOU SELL YOUR HOUSE BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED THAT KIND OF AGGRAVATION AROUND THE HOUSE.

SO I'M JUST SAYING, BEWARE OF FIGHTS BETWEEN NEIGHBORS.

SO THIS WAS AN EXAMPLE THERE WAS A LADY WHO WAS BEING SUPPORTED BY THIS COUNCILLOR WHO I GUESS HAD A FEW WORDS WITH HER NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR.

AND THEN FINALLY HE HAD A PARTY AND SHE CALLED BYLAW ENFORCEMENT TO COME AND THE BYLAW ENFORCEMENT KNOCKED ON THIS GUYS DOOR AND SAID, YOU SHOULDN'T BE NOISY.

AND THAT WAS AT THE END OF IT, BUT THIS FELLOW KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE HAD A SURVEY OF THE PROPERTY.

AND BELIEVE ME, IN EVERY MUNICIPALITY, THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF ZONING INFRACTIONS ALL OVER THE PLACE AND BELIEVE ME, STAFF DO NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH THEM IF THEY CAN AVOID IT THEY WILL.

BUT THIS GUY KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE HAD A SURVEY.

HE WENT TO STAFF AND HE SAID.

THIS WOMAN IS SHORT ON HER SIDE YARD.

SHE NEEDS TO GO TO THE COMMITTEE OF ADJUSTMENT FOR A MINOR VARIANCE, AND SHE HAS A STEP THAT ENCROACHES ON THE ROAD ALLOWANCE.

SHE NEEDS AN ENCROACHMENT AGREEMENT.

AND, OF COURSE, WHAT ARE STAFF GOING TO DO.

THEY HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH THAT.

OF COURSE THIS COST THIS LADY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

AND THE COUNCILLOR IT WAS VERY INAPPROPRIATE FOR HER TO TAKE A POSITION IN FAVOR OF THIS WOMAN.

SO THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF BE CAREFUL OF SUPPORTING PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THAT.

NOW GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE.

NOW GIFT'S.

THE KEY WORDS ARE A GIFT THAT IS CONNECTED DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY WITH THE PERFORMANCE OF A COUNCILLOR'S DUTY.

I WON'T BE CHECKING UNDER YOUR CHRISTMAS TREE, OBVIOUSLY.

SOME CODES HAVE MONETARY LIMITS, YOURS DOESN'T, WHICH ARE HELPFUL, SOME REQUIRE FILING A DISCLOSURE WITH ME IF YOU'RE OFFERED SOMETHING VALUABLE.

YOU CAN ALWAYS ACCEPT IT ON BEHALF OF THE TOWN.

BUT MAKE SURE YOU TELL THE PROPERTY DEPARTMENT, AND DON'T TAKE IT HOME.

I MEAN, AND YOU'RE IN A VERY IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MEMBER OF COUNCIL, SO DON'T EMBARRASS YOURSELF, DON'T RETURN A MUG, A 35 DOLLAR MUG, YOU CAN ACCEPT GIFTS.

GIFTS, EXCEPTIONS.

I COULD GO THROUGH THEM, BUT I DON'T WANT TO I WANT TO SPEED THIS UP.

I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT IF YOU'RE DEALING WITH A DEVELOPER, FOR EXAMPLE, ON LAND USE SOMEWHERE AND YOU WANT TO MEET WITH THE DEVELOPER AND THE DEVELOPER WILL BUY YOU LUNCH, THAT'S NOT A PROBLEM WITH ME.

JUST BE SURE THAT YOU DON'T BE SEEN WITH THIS DEVELOPER ALL THE TIME.

AND IT MIGHT BE IF YOU DO SEE HIM MORE THAN ONCE FOR LUNCH OR DINNER, MAYBE YOU SHOULD PAY.

AND I HOPE YOU'RE SPENDING RULES [INAUDIBLE] CONTRACTORS DON'T TALK.

I MEAN, YOU CAN TALK TO CONTRACTORS, BUT NOT IF THEY HAVE A BID ON A TENDER.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE NO PART TO PLAY ON THE PURCHASING BYLAW EXCEPT TO TAKE A STAFF RECOMMENDATION AND APPROVE IT OR NOT APPROVE IT TO AWARD A CONTRACT.

JUST SHY AWAY FROM DEALING WITH ANYBODY WHO'S A CONTRACTOR.

I SPENT PART OF MY CAREER EMPLOYED BY A MUNICIPALITY, AND ONE THING I LEARNED IS

[01:35:10]

THE CHICKEN IS RUBBER, THE SPEECHES ARE BORING AND YOU GET HOME AT 11 O'CLOCK.

SO IF SOMEBODY OFFERS TO BUY A TICKET TO A BANQUET AND IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR BUSINESS, YOUR BUSINESS OF BEING A COUNCILLOR, I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU A HARD TIME IF YOU ACCEPT THAT TICKET.

BUT THINGS LIKE, DON'T LOOK AT SOMEBODY AND SOMEBODY OFFERS YOU THE USE OF THEIR COTTAGE FOR A TIME.

DON'T DO THAT.

THAT'S TOO MUCH.

OK, SO.

NEXT IS THIS IS, AGAIN, USE OF CITY PROPERTY ONLY USE CITY PROPERTY FOR ACTIVITIES RELEVANT TO THE ROLE AS MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL AND NOT OBTAIN PERSONAL FINANCIAL GAIN, MEMBERS MAY NOT USE CITY RESOURCES FOR ANY TYPE OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY DURING MUNICIPAL ELECTION.

WELL I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT.

THERE ARE SOME YOU MAY HAVE SOME POLICY THAT LETS THE CITY BUY YOU A CELL PHONE OR RENT A CELL PHONE OR WHATEVER.

THAT'S FINE.

BUT JUST ABIDE BY THE SPENDING POLICY AND THE USE OF PROPERTY, AND YOU'LL BE FINE.

NEXT, WE HAVE HARASSMENT.

ANY BEHAVIOR, CONDUCT OR COMMENT BY A MEMBER OF THOSE DIRECTED AT OR OFFENSIVE TO ANOTHER PERSON'S ON THE GROUNDS OF RACE, ANCESTRY, PLACE OF ORIGIN, ET CETERA, REASONABLY PERCEIVED BY THE RECIPIENT AS AN INTENTION TO BULLY, EMBARRASS, INTIMIDATE OR RIDICULE.

I BELIEVE THAT A MEMBER OF COUNCIL SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN VIGOROUS DEBATE.

SOMETIMES IT GETS A LITTLE WILD.

SOMETIMES YOU MIGHT THINK IT AMOUNTS TO HARASSMENT OF ANOTHER COUNCILLOR, BUT I PROBABLY WILL FORGIVE IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO DEVELOP A THICK SKIN IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE A POLITICIAN.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE AGAIN.

I HAD A MAYOR AND A DEPUTY MAYOR.

THE DEPUTY MAYOR WAS A LADY, AND THAT MAYOR WAS A MAN.

THE DEPUTY MAYOR HATED THE MAYOR AND JUST WENT AFTER HIM CONSTANTLY.

I WARNED HER A COUPLE OF TIMES.

AND THEN FINALLY HE WAS AT A OPEN COUNCIL MEETING, DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION.

AND IN OPEN COUNCIL SHE CALLED HIM DIRTY BECAUSE HE MET WITH ONE SIDE OF THE APPLICATION AND NOT THE OBJECTORS SHE CALLED HIM DIRTY.

AND I DID IMPOSE SOME SANCTIONS AGAINST HER.

ANOTHER ONE AND VIDEOS ARE GREAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE CLAIM HARASSMENT, YOU CAN WATCH THE WHOLE THING AND YOU CAN MAKE A DECISION VERY EASILY.

THIS WAS A LADY WHO APPEARED BEFORE A COUNCIL ARGUING ABOUT FLUORIDATION OF WATER.

AND SHE STARTED OUT HER PRESENTATION JUST NASTY ABOUT HOW COUNCILLORS DID NOT READ THESE REPORTS.

THEY DIDN'T DO THIS.

THEY DIDN'T DO THAT.

VERY AGGRESSIVE.

AND THEN ONE COUNCILLOR TOOK HER ON AND SAID SOME NASTY THINGS TO HER, NOT TERRIBLY NASTY.

BUT I DECIDED THAT THAT WAS NOT HARASSMENT.

SHE COMPLAINED THE DEBUTANT COMPLAINED TO ME AND I DECIDED THAT WASN'T HARASSMENT BECAUSE SHE GAVE AS GOOD AS SHE GOT.

SOCIAL MEDIA, I SEE YOU DO MENTION SOCIAL MEDIA IN YOUR CODE, AND IT'S JUST I ALWAYS REGARD SOCIAL MEDIA AS JUST KIND OF AN ENHANCED EMAIL.

IT'S A COMMUNICATION ENHANCED COMMUNICATION.

AND THE WAY I APPROACH IT IS IF THERE IS A POLICY OR GUIDELINE IN THE CITY THEN YOU SHOULD FOLLOW ON.

ALWAYS IDENTIFY YOURSELVES WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT TO COVER DISGUISE OR MISLEAD YOUR IDENTITY.

AND DON'T PUBLISH ANYTHING THAT'S DISHONEST.

SO THAT'S SOCIAL MEDIA.

[01:40:07]

I'LL DO SOME MORE LATER.

UNLESS YOU WANT ME TO CARRY ON.

I THINK AT THIS POINT, MR. SWAYZE, I'D JUST ASK YOU TO CARRY ON SO THAT WHEN IT'S OVER, WE GET THE FULL SCREEN BACK AND I CAN SEE EVERYBODY AGAIN.

YES SURE.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW I CAN ONLY SEE A COUPLE MEMBERS.

I UNDERSTAND.

OK, SO WE'RE GOING TO START ON THE COMPLAINTS PROCESS AND THE ROLE OF THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

THESE ARE ONLY SECTIONS WHICH DEAL WITH THE ADVISORY ROLE THAT I HAVE, WHICH I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT.

SOME CODES HAVE FORMS TO FILL OUT OTHERS DO NOT.

YOURS HAS A FORM TO FILL OUT AND A FIFTY DOLLAR FEE THAT'S DISCOURAGED BY THE ONTARIO OMBUDSMAN.

BUT I LIVE WITH IT AND IT'S NOT A PROBLEM AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

IT IS A DETERRENT, I GUESS TO FILING COMPLAINTS.

YOU ALSO FILTER THE COMPLAINTS THROUGH THE CLERK, WHICH IS A MISTAKE.

I'VE HAD MANY EXAMPLES OF THE CLERK HAVING A REAL PROBLEM WITH THAT, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IF ONE COUNCILLOR COMPLAINS ABOUT ANOTHER COUNCILLOR AND YOU'RE IN THIS PROCEDURE WHERE I GET IT.

I THEN SERVE THE OTHER COUNCILLOR WITH THE COMPLAINT THAT COUNCILLOR RECEIVES A COMPLAINT AND GOES TO THE CLERK AND SAYS I THOUGHT YOU WERE MY FRIEND.

YOU KNEW ABOUT THIS AND YOU DIDN'T TELL ME.

SO IT'S BEST TO SEND THE COMPLAINTS DIRECTLY TO ME, THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

I'VE HAD LEAKS IN THE CLERKS DEPARTMENT, I DON'T MEAN YOUR CLERKS DEPARTMENT, BUT IN OTHER CLERKS DEPARTMENTS.

NOW, I'M PREPARED TO ACCEPT A COMPLAINT THAT IS ANONYMOUS SO LONG AS I'M ABLE TO DO AN INVESTIGATION AND ASK QUESTIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT NECESSARILY DISCLOSING WHO THE PERSON IS.

SO IF IT'S A COMPLAINT ABOUT THE HARASSMENT OF THE COMPLAINANT, THEN OBVIOUSLY I CAN'T DO AN INVESTIGATION WITHOUT DISCLOSING THE NAME OF THE COMPLAINANT, BUT IF I CAN GET AWAY WITHOUT DISCLOSING IT, I ACCEPT ANONYMOUS COMPLAINTS.

AND THAT'S MY DECISION.

PEOPLE WILL ASK ME TO BE ANONYMOUS AND I'LL EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT I CAN'T DO IT.

I'M REQUIRED TO DO AN INITIAL REVIEW OF THE PROCESS.

COMPLAINTS MUST BE IN WRITING COMPLAINTS MUST B SIGNED AND DATED, THESE ARE ALL PRETTY STANDARD SECTIONS.

INTEGRITY COMMISSION SHALL UNDERTAKE AN INITIAL REVIEW OF A COMPLAINT THAT HAS BEEN FILED WHICH SHALL DETERMINE WHETHER THE MATTER RELATES TO NONCOMPLIANCE WITH THE CODE OR OTHER CORPORATE POLICY.

AND IF IT IS ANOTHER CORPORATE POLICY WITH ITS OWN PROCEDURE, SUCH AS A CRIMINAL MATTER, I WILL SUSPEND THE COMPLAINT, STOP THE INVESTIGATION AND ASK THE COMPLAINANT TO REFER TO THE POLICE.

IF IT'S A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION I WILL PROBABLY SEND THAT TO THE HEAD OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

AND IF IT'S MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS ACT OF COURSE, THAT'S THE CLERK.

THE CLERK IS THE EXPERT ON THAT.

SO I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY TAKE A COMPLAINT ABOUT IT.

AND HERE'S WHERE I CAN DISMISS A COMPLAINT IF I FIND IT TO BE FRIVOLOUS OR VEXATIOUS OR NOT MADE IN GOOD FAITH, OR THAT THERE ARE NO GROUNDS OR INSUFFICIENT GROUNDS FOR CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION.

AND I WILL SUMMARILY DISMISS COMPLAINTS, AS I SAID EARLIER, I DISMISS ABOUT 50

[01:45:07]

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY STRANGE, VERY CONFUSING.

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

AND I DISMISS THEM BY CONFIDENTIAL EMAIL WITHOUT NOTICE TO ANYONE.

SO YOU DON'T FIND OUT THAT SOMEBODY COMPLAINED AGAINST YOU IF I DO THIS.

IF THE COMPLAINANT GOES PUBLIC WITH MY DISMISSAL, THEN I WILL DO A REPORT TO COUNCIL TO [INAUDIBLE] WHAT HAPPENS ENDS UP IN THE PRESS AND WITH ONE SIDED ARGUMENTS WHY IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DISMISSED.

AND SO I'LL DO A REPORT TO COUNCIL AND INDICATE MY ARGUMENTS WHY I DID DISMISS IT.

BUT OTHERWISE I DON'T GIVE NOTICE TO ANYONE I DON'T WANT TO GIVE A PLATFORM TO THESE COMPLAINANTS.

NOW WE'RE ALMOST GETTING NEAR THE END HERE.

IF I HAVE STARTED TO COMMENCE INVESTIGATION, THE INTEGRITY COMMISSION SHOULD PROVIDE A COPY OF THE COMPLAINTS SUPPORTING EVIDENCE AGAINST THE MEMBER WITH A WRITTEN RESPONSE WITHIN 10 DAYS, AND YOU HAVE THAT IN YOUR CODE.

CERTAINLY THE THE RESPONDENT IS ENTITLED TO KNOW THE CASE THAT HE OR SHE FACES.

OFTEN IF I DECIDED TO RECOMMEND SANCTIONS, I WILL LET THE RESPONDENT KNOW THAT I'M GOING TO DO THAT.

I DON'T GIVE AN ADVANCE COPY OF MY REPORT.

BECAUSE I FOUND THAT IT ENDS UP IN THE HANDS OF THE PRESS OR ON A BLOG THE NEXT DAY WITH A ONE SIDED ARGUMENT AGAINST MY FINDINGS, BUT I SUMMARIZE MY REPORT.

I TELL THIS PERSON THAT I'M GOING TO RECOMMEND SANCTIONS.

AND THEN AT THE TIME IT BECOMES PUBLIC AND I GUESS, YOU KNOW, THE PROCEDURE THAT THE CLERK GOES THROUGH WITH SENDING AN AGENDA WITH ALL THE REPORTS TO MEMBERS OF COUNCIL AND THEN POSTING IT ON THE WEBSITE, WHICH BECOMES PUBLIC.

I MAKE SURE THAT THE COUNCILLOR THE RESPONDENT RECEIVES A COPY OF MY REPORT JUST BEFORE IT BECOMES PUBLIC SO THAT THEY CAN ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS, ETC..

NEW LAST YEAR, COUNCILLORS CAN ARGUE IN OPEN OR CLOSED COUNCIL AGAINST A REPORT FROM THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER RECOMMENDING SANCTIONS.

THEY CAN'T VOTE ON IT.

PRIOR TO MARCH 1ST, THE COUNCIL WAS REQUIRED TO LEAVE THE MEETING IF HE OR SHE HAD A PECUNIARY YOU'RE NOW ENTITLED TO DEFEND YOURSELF, BUT YOU CAN'T VOTE.

YOUR CODE REQUIRES A WHOLE BUNCH [INAUDIBLE] I SERVE THE RESPONDENT WITH THE COMPLAINT, THEN I ASK FOR A RESPONSE.

I HAVE TO SERVE THE RESPONSE ON THE COMPLAINANT AND GOES ON AND ON.

YOUR CODE IS VERY COSTLY AND I'LL DEAL WITH WHAT I'M SUGGESTING THAT.

NOW DEALING WITH PENALTIES AND I'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT SLIDE.

PENALTIES AND YOU KNOW, THAT THE MUNICIPAL ACT PROVIDES THAT I CAN RECOMMEND A REPRIMAND OR SUSPENSION OF THE REMUNERATION PAID UP TO 90 DAYS.

BACK HERE.

I CAN ALSO RECOMMEND THAT A MEMBER OF A COMMITTEE BE REMOVED FROM THAT COMMITTEE, REMOVED AS CHAIR OR REMOVED FROM COMMITTEE.

YOUR CODE INCLUDES MY POWER TO REQUEST, TO RECOMMEND AT THE REQUEST OF RETURN OF THE

[01:50:07]

COUNCIL YOUR CODE IS WRONG, IN THAT THE COUNCIL DOESN'T HAVE THE POWER TO REQUIRE AN APOLOGY.

THE WAY IT'S DONE BY INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER IS THE WAY I DO IT IS I WILL RECOMMEND A SUSPENSION OF PAY X NUMBER OF DAYS UNLESS THEY DO AN APOLOGY OR UNLESS THEY RETURN THE GIFT OR UNLESS, SO I MAKE IT A CONTINGENT MATTER AND IT IS THEN ILLEGAL.

YOUR CODE PROBABLY SHOULD BE CHANGED, BUT I'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. GAGNON ABOUT CHANGING YOUR CODE AND I IT'S NOT THAT BAD.

IT HAS SOME SECTIONS IN IT WHICH ARE ILLEGAL.

IF YOU WANT ME TO REVISE YOUR CODE AND KEEP SOME OF THE WORDING, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY COSTLY.

IT'LL PROBABLY TAKE ME 10 HOURS TO DO THAT.

WHAT I HAVE DONE IN OTHER MUNICIPALITIES IS I HAVE A TRIED AND TRUE CODE.

I'M GOING TO SEND IT TO MR. GAGNON HE CAN SHARE HE CAN DISCUSS IT WITH COUNCIL IF HE WANTS TO, YOU CAN REPEAL YOUR EXISTING CODE AND PASS THE NEW ONE IF YOU'RE INTERESTED OR NOT.

IT WON'T COST A LOT OF MONEY LIKE IF I HAD TO GO IN AND REVISE YOUR ENTIRE DOCUMENT.

SO ANYWAY, THAT'S SOMETHING I'LL SEND TO MR. GAGNON.

OK, WE'RE ALMOST GETTING THERE.

THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT.

SO AN ELECTOR MAY APPLY IN WRITING TO THE COMMISSIONER FOR INQUIRY TO BE CARRIED OUT CONCERNING AN ALLEGED CONTRAVENTION OF SECTION 5, 5.1 AND 5.2.

SO HERE'S THE REQUIREMENT OF FIVE ONE.

IF YOU HAVE A PECUNIARY INTEREST YOU SHALL PRIOR TO THE CONSIDERATION OF THE MATTER AT THE MEETING, DISCLOSE THE INTEREST AND THE GENERAL NATURE THEREOF SHALL NOT TAKE PART IN DISCUSSIONS OF OR VOTE ON ANY QUESTION AND SHALL NOT ATTEMPT IN ANY WAY WHETHER BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE MEETING TO INFLUENCE THE VOTING ON ANY SUCH QUESTION.

SO YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU HAVE A PECUNIARY INTERESTS.

AND LET ME SAY.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH DISCLOSING A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

IN FACT, THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT, THE PURPOSE OF THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT, IN MY VIEW, IS TO ATTRACT MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY WHO HAVE BUSINESSES, WHO ARE HOMEOWNERS, ATTRACT THEM TO RUN FOR COUNCIL.

SO ALL YOU HAVE TO DO DECLARE IF YOU HAVE A PECUNIARY CONFLICT, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO DECLARE IT AND NOT VOTE AND NOT INFLUENCE THE VOTE.

AND SO.

I WOULD SAY OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, WHEREVER YOU'RE IN DOUBT, YOU SHOULD DECLARE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

AS FAR AS MY POWER TO I HAVE A RIGHT TO APPLY TO A JUDGE.

THE JUDGE HAS THE POWER TO DO THE THINGS THAT I CAN DO.

HE CAN TAKE MONEY AWAY, HE CAN REPRIMAND, HE CAN ALSO REMOVE A COUNCILLOR FROM THE COUNCIL AND ALSO SUSPEND THAT COUNCILLOR FROM BEING ABLE TO RUN IN THE NEXT ELECTION.

SO IT'S A PRETTY POWERFUL THING FOR THE COURT TO DO.

I'VE ONLY TAKEN ONE.

IT'S IN COURT NOW.

I'VE ONLY DONE IT ONCE.

IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE AND I THINK IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY REMEDY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF INTEGRITY COMMISSIONERS THAT HAVE THESE THINGS GOING TO COURT.

USUALLY THE COURT REFUSES TO REMOVE SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN VALIDLY ELECTED FROM COUNCIL.

I HAVE ONE THAT'S AN EXTREME CASE, WHICH I AM TAKING.

IN THESE THE LAST OF TWO YEARS, I HAVE NOT TAKEN ANYBODY ELSE.

EXAMPLE, I HAD A COMPLAINT ABOUT A RESTAURANT OWNER, A MEMBER OF COUNCIL WHO VOTED

[01:55:10]

IT'S TOO REMOTE AND I REFUSE TO TAKE THAT TO COURT, JUST AS AN EXAMPLE.

AND NOW SO I HAVE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS, I HAVE TO ADVISE THE APPLICANT, I HAVE TO DO A REPORT TO COUNCIL, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S MY JURISDICTION, MY DECISION WHETHER TO TAKE SOMETHING T COURT.

COUNCIL HAS NO INPUT IN THAT EXCEPT TO RECEIVE NOTICE.

I HAVE SOME PROBLEMS, THAT I WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT WITH THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT.

OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU HAVE A PECUNIARY INTERESTS, YOU OR YOUR FAMILY HAS A PECUNIARY INTEREST, THEN YOU HAVE TO DECLARE AN INTEREST AND YOU CAN'T VOTE.

NOW, THERE ARE PERSONAL CONFLICTS WHICH ARE NON PECUNIARY.

WHICH HAVE BOTHERED ME.

I HAVE WRITTEN CRITICAL REPORTS ABOUT THEM, BUT HAVE NEVER IMPOSED SANCTIONS.

IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEBODY BEING ON THE BOARD OF A CHARITY DEALING WITH THE AWARD OF GRANTS BY THE MUNICIPALITY, THAT'S A NO NO.

THE PROBLEM IS IN MOST PROCEDURAL BYLAWS IF YOU DECLARE A PERSONAL CONFLICT, NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LEGISLATION, THE PROCEDURAL BYLAW WILL COUNT AS A NEGATIVE VOTE, WHICH I THINK IS A BIT STRICT.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THAT THE DEFINITION OF FAMILY IN THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT DOES NOT INCLUDE SIBLINGS.

SO YOUR BROTHER, YOUR SISTER LET'S SAY COULD COME TO COUNCIL AND BRING ON A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT AND STRICTLY SPEAKING, YOU COULD VOTE FOR IT AND YOU WOULD NOT BE CONTRAVENING THE MUNICIPAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT'S A SERIOUS CONFLICT AND OF COURSE, I WOULD PROBABLY USE THE CODE OF CONDUCT TO PENALIZE ANYBODY WHO DID THAT, BUT I TRIED TO GET THE PROVINCE TO CHANGE THAT PROVISION AND INCLUDE SIBLINGS.

BUT I MADE A SUBMISSION TO THEM, BUT THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

MR. MAYOR, THAT COMPLETES MY REMARKS, AND I WAS JUST ABOUT EXACTLY ONE HOUR AS I SAID I WOULD BE AND I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.

THANK YOU, MR. SWAYZE, FOR THE PRESENTATION.

NOT SURE IF YOU'RE ABLE TO REMOVE THE PRESENTATION SO WE CAN GET BACK TO THE HOLLYWOOD SQUARES.

LET ME SEE IF I CAN DO THAT.

BEAUTIFUL.

OK, THANK YOU AGAIN.

SO I DO LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR VERSION OF THE CODE OF CONDUCT COME TO COUNCIL EVENTUALLY.

WE'VE HAD A FEW OUR MUNICIPALITY ADOPTED A CODE OF CONDUCT A YEAR PRIOR TO IT BEING WORKED INTO LAW FOR THE PROVINCE.

AS YOU'RE AWARE, YOU WERE OUR FIRST INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER AT THE TIME.

[02:00:06]

EVERY MUNICIPALITY ALL HAS THE SAME CODE OF CONDUCT TO TO WORK FROM ALONG WITH SOME KIND OF AN OFFICE THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK THROUGH COMPLAINTS, A STATIC OFFICE BY THE MINISTRY THAT REMOVES ANY FRIVOLOUS OR VEXATIOUS COMPLAINTS IMMEDIATELY BEFORE GOING TO THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER ITSELF.

BECAUSE THIS IS A HUGE FINANCIAL BURDEN ON THE TAXPAYERS, AS YOU'RE WELL AWARE.

THE REASON WHY OUR COUNCIL IMPOSED THE FIFTY DOLLAR FEE, WHICH IS REFUNDABLE IF IT DOES GO TO INVESTIGATION, WAS DUE TO 2019 WITHIN A MATTER OF THREE MONTHS THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER OF THE DAY HAD NOTIFIED US THAT THERE WAS 102 COMPLAINTS FILED WITHIN A MATTER OF THREE MONTHS, AND THAT WAS JUST IN THREE MONTHS THEY CONTINUED ON THROUGH THE YEAR.

SO ESSENTIALLY THE CODE OF CONDUCT, THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER WAS BEING USED AS A TOOL OF HARASSMENT TOWARDS MANY MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, INCLUDING MYSELF, WHO FELT THAT SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUALS WHO RUN FOR COUNCIL, EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO DO THEIR BEST FOR MUNICIPALITY AND EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES.

WE'RE HUMAN.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE JOBS, WE HAVE LIVES, WE HAVE FAMILIES ON TOP OF THE MANY, MANY HOURS THAT WE SPEND ON COUNCIL.

SO THE FACT THAT INDIVIDUALS IN THE COMMUNITY WERE USING THIS AS A TOOL OF HARASSMENT, AND AGAIN, ONE HUNDRED AND TWO IN THREE MONTHS AND I BELIEVE 14 OF THOSE ACTUALLY WENT TO INVESTIGATION.

BUT YOU'RE BEING NOTIFIED CONSTANTLY THAT ANOTHER COMPLAINTS BEING FILED AND OTHER COMPLAINTS BEING FILED, YOU'RE BEING INVESTIGATED EVEN MORE.

IT'S BEING USED AS A POLITICAL TOOL OF HARASSMENT.

AND SO WHEN YOU ADD THE FIFTY DOLLAR FEE TO IT.

NOW, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT'S ONLY REAL COMPLAINTS THAT ARE BEING FILED.

YOU'RE NOT SEEING THE FRIVOLOUS ATTACKS ON INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS AND WE CAN CARRY ON WITH THE BUSINESS OF MUNICIPALITIES.

SO THAT WAS KIND OF THE REASONING AND RATIONALE BEHIND THAT.

IT'S A HARD ONE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE TO PAY TO DO THIS TYPE OF THING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF IT'S BEING INVESTIGATED, YOU'LL GET YOUR 50 DOLLARS BACK AND AGAIN, MEMBERS OF COUNCIL CAN CARRY ON TRYING TO DO THE BUSINESS OF THE MUNICIPALITY.

SO, AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION.

AND I'LL START WITH SOME QUESTIONS FROM COUNCIL.

I HOPE THAT WE STILL HAVE ALL OF OUR MR. MAYOR LET ME RESPOND TO THAT, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME IF THE CODE HAS A FIFTY DOLLAR FEE IN IT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A REAL DETERRENT.

AND CERTAINLY IF YOU HAVE THAT MANY COMPLAINTS AND THAT MANY WENT TO INVESTIGATION, IT'S VERY HARD TO BELIEVE.

I DISMISS AND WITH A FIVE MINUTE EMAIL MANY COMPLAINTS WHICH ARE OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO MERIT.

SO I'M SURPRISED THAT YOU HAD THAT MANY VALID COMPLAINTS.

ONLY 14 WERE VALID, ONE AND TWO WERE FILED, BUT YOU'RE BEING NOTIFIED EVERY TIME AND THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO WAIT A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE YOU'RE NOTIFIED WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE INTO INVESTIGATION.

IT'S JUST, AGAIN, DON'T GET NOTIFIED.

YOU DON'T EVEN LEARN ABOUT IT.

I JUST DISMISS IT WITH A 5 MINUTE EMAIL.

WELL, THAT WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL.

I'VE ALWAYS DONE THAT.

COUNCILLOR MANN YOU HAD THANK YOU, YOUR WORSHIP THROUGH YOU, MR. SWAYZE, I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR PRESENTATION THIS EVENING.

I THINK IT'S BEEN VERY INSIGHTFUL AND I THINK SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT OUR EXISTING CODE PERSONALLY ARE TRULY APPRECIATED.

THERE'S DEFINITELY ISSUES WITH OUR EXISTING CODE, AND I TRULY LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS TO REVISE IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

I'M NOT PREPARED TO TALK ABOUT THE PAST TONIGHT TO ANY GREAT EXTENT.

HOWEVER, YOU INDICATED ON ONE OF YOUR SLIDES REGARDING PENALTIES.

I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.

YOU HAD TWO LISTED, ONE BEING REPRIMAND AND THE OTHER BEING A MAXIMUM OF 90 DAYS OF REMUNERATION BEING WITHHELD.

AND THEN BESIDE THAT, THERE WAS A DATE OF 2006.

COULD YOU ELABORATE A LITTLE BIT ON THAT? AND THEN I GUESS THE FOLLOW UP WOULD BE, ARE THERE ANY OTHER PENALTIES ASSOCIATED THAT YOU CAN IMPOSE?

[02:05:05]

I USUALLY START WITH A FIRST OFFENSE OF 30 DAYS AND THEN MAYBE GO UP TO 60 DAYS FOR A SECOND OFFENSE IF THIS PERSON IS NOT ABIDING BY THE CODE OF CONDUCT.

THE OTHER PENALTIES REMOVAL FROM COMMITTEE COUNCIL HAS THE POWER TO DO THAT.

THE OTHER IF ANY SUGGESTION THAT COUNCIL HAS THE POWER TO REQUIRE AN APOLOGY IS NOT CORRECT.

IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT POWER.

IT DOESN'T HAVE THE POWER TO REQUIRE THE RETURN OF A GIFT OR REPAY THE VALUE OF IT.

BUT I CAN DO THAT BY IMPOSING A PENALTY OF SO MANY DAYS SALARY UNLESS THEY DO AN APOLOGY.

AND WHEN I REQUIRE AN APOLOGY, I USUALLY ASK THEM TO GIVE ME A DRAFT FIRST TO MAKE SURE IT'S AN APPROPRIATE APOLOGY THAT I CAN APPROVE AND AND I MAKE SURE THAT IT'S PUBLIC.

OK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU, MR. SWAYZE IT'S VERY THOROUGH AND I APPRECIATE THE SLIDES SIMILAR TO WHAT COUNCILLOR MANN JUST SAID.

I JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF COMPLAINTS.

SO NOT COMPLAINTS.

SORRY, A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THESE COMPLAINTS.

SO IF A COMPLAINT IS NOT FILED AN AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER, SO I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO THE MAYOR'S COMMENTS WHERE HE SAYS THERE'S OVER A HUNDRED COMPLAINTS FILED THERE WE'RE NOT 100 COMPLAINTS FILED.

THERE WAS DIFFERENT SECTIONS INCLUDED IN COMPLAINTS.

AND THEN THERE ARE ASPECTS WHERE THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER ADDED ADDITIONAL SECTIONS OR VIOLATIONS WHERE COMPLAINTS WEREN'T EVEN FILED TO GET TO THAT 100 AND SOME COMPLAINTS POTENTIALLY.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU DO OR THAT YOU SHOULD DO IS ONE QUESTION, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO ANSWER THAT.

WELL, ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER HAS DONE AN INVESTIGATION AND FOUND OTHER VIOLATIONS THAT WERE NOT IN THE COMPLAINT? YES.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

YES.

I GUESS THAT'S A POSSIBILITY.

I HADN'T THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY, BUT CERTAINLY I DON'T PATROL.

I DON'T READ YOUR NEWSPAPER, I RECEIVE COMPLAINTS, I TAKE THEM AT FACE VALUE, AND IF THEY APPEAR TO HAVE SOME VALIDITY, I MAY GO BACK TO THE COMPLAINANT AND SAY, GIVE ME THIS INFORMATION, GIVE ME THAT INFORMATION.

BUT I'M KIND OF BOUND BY THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE COMPLAINT.

FOR ME TO GO FURTHER WOULD, I THINK, BE BEYOND MY JURISDICTION.

OK, SO THAT DOES ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

SO FOR, FOR INSTANCE, SAY, SOMEBODY FILES A CONFLICT OF INTEREST COMPLAINT, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ADD A WHOLE BUNCH OF CODE OF CONDUCT BASED ON THAT CONFLICT OF INTEREST COMPLAINT? NO.

THANK YOU.

SO THEN ONE OTHER QUESTION I HAVE.

SHOULD STAFF BE CONTACTING THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER ABOUT A POTENTIAL ISSUE PRIOR TO A COMPLAINT BEING FILED? AND SHOULD STAFF BE CONTACTING THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER TO GET COPIES OR CLARIFICATION OF A REPORT THAT'S GOING TO BE FILED PRIOR TO COMING TO COUNCIL LIVE? MY CODE OF CONDUCT STAFF KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT IT, STAFF SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM THIS WHEREVER THEY CAN.

THE COMPLAINT SHOULD COME DIRECTLY TO THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER AND I WILL BRING IN STAFF IF IT'S APPROPRIATE.

OTHERWISE, IT JUST COMES TO THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

NOW, THE ONLY REPORTING I DO IN EVERY CASE IS I SUBMIT INVOICES WHICH ARE VERY DETAILED WITH DOCKETS.

SO I NAMED THE COMPLAINTS THAT I HAVE.

SO IF STAFF HAS A QUESTION FOR ME, THEY CAN LOOK AT MY INVOICE AND SEE THAT I'VE

[02:10:02]

THEY CAN CALL ME AND I WILL DEAL.

I'LL TALK TO THEM.

BUT THE LESS EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE BETTER IT IS AND THE CHEAPER IT IS IN TERMS OF COST.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I'LL LEAVE IT AT THAT.

THANK YOU.

THAT'S VERY INSIGHTFUL.

COUNCILLOR FINAMORE.

THANK YOU YOUR WORSHIP THROUGH YOU TO MR. SWAYZE, THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION.

I JUST HAVE ONE QUICK QUESTION, BUT YOU MAY HAVE JUST ANSWERED IT.

I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY, DO YOU DO YOUR OWN INVESTIGATIONS OR DO YOU HIRE PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS? I DO MY OWN.

I HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO HIRE SOME CONSULTANTS OCCASIONALLY, AND I ALSO USE STAFF.

FOR EXAMPLE, I HAVE TO SERVE A COMPLAINT ON THE RESPONDENT.

I SAY TO THEM, PLEASE RESPOND WITHIN 10 DAYS AND I GIVE THEM 4:30 PM ON A CERTAIN DAY TO RESPOND.

IF THEY DON'T RESPOND I DON'T HIRE A PROCESS SERVER.

I GO TO THE CLERK OR THE CAO AND SAY, WOULD YOU PLEASE DELIVER THIS TO THIS MEMBER OF COUNCIL? AND THAT'S HOW I SERVE IT SO IT SAVES MONEY THAT WAY.

QUITE OFTEN I'LL DO SEARCHES THROUGH THE IT DEPARTMENT WHERE I MAY WANT TO LOOK AT SOME EMAILS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO I HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT AS WELL.

BUT IT'S VERY RARE FOR ME TO HIRE ANY OUTSIDERS.

NOW, IF I HAVE A CONFLICT, I'M ENTITLED TO DELEGATE TO SOMEONE I HAVE I THINK I'VE DONE THAT ONCE IN 13 YEARS, SO I DON'T DO THAT VERY OFTEN EITHER.

THANK YOU.

IS THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM COUNCILLORS? MR. GAGNON.

NOT A COUNCILLOR, OF COURSE, BUT I JUST WANTED TO MAYBE JUST ADD A LITTLE BIT OF CONTEXT TO THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THIS HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON COUNCIL, BUT WE HAVE LAY PEOPLE, COMMITTEE MEMBERS ON THIS ZOOM AS WELL.

SO THE CODE OF CONDUCT ALSO APPLIES TO COMMITTEE APPOINTEES.

AND MAYBE MR. SWAYZE CAN JUST ELABORATE A LITTLE BIT ON THAT.

MAYBE IT'S NOT QUITE AS MUCH IN THE SENSE THAT A LOT OF OUR COMMITTEES DON'T HAVE SPENDING POWER.

SO THERE'S LIKELY LESS CONFLICT RISK.

BUT THE CODE OF CONDUCT STILL APPLIES TO ALL OUR COMMITTEE APPOINTEES.

SO PRESUMABLY COMPLAINTS CAN BE LODGED ABOUT THEIR BEHAVIOR AS WELL AS A SITTING COUNCILLOR OR IF I'M WRONG, FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME.

AND I ALSO TOOK A CALL FROM A QUESTION FROM A COMMITTEE MEMBER, WHICH I CAN ASK ONCE WELL, I GUESS I THINK I SAID IN MY PRESENTATION ABOUT MISSISSAUGA I SPENT MANY, MANY HOURS WORKING ON DIFFERENT CODES FOR COMMITTEES, ADVISORY COMMITTEES, COMMITTEE OF ADJUSTMENTS COMMUNITIES LIKE THAT AND HAVE NEVER HAD A COMPLAINT.

SO IT'S VERY RARE TO HAVE A COMPLAINT, THOUGH IF IT'S A JUDICIAL COMMITTEE SUCH AS THE COMMITTEE OF ADJUSTMENT OR YOU MAY HAVE SOME LICENSING COMMITTEES THAT WILL APPROVE LICENSES, THAT'S JUDICIAL.

OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T HAVE BIAS IN MAKING A DECISION ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT, SO YOU CAN'T BE TAKING A GIFT, FOR EXAMPLE, FROM THE APPLICANT TO THE COMMITTEE OF ADJUSTMENT IF YOU ARE MEMBER OBVIOUSLY.

SO YOU'RE A LITTLE STRICTER WITH IT.

THE ADVISORY COMMITTEES I THINK I INDICATED I MEAN, THEY COULD BE ALL OVER THE MAP.

THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT I USE ALREADY IS A LICENSING COMMITTEE, SORRY, A TAXI COMMITTEE WHERE EVERYBODY HAS A CONFLICT.

SO YOU WANT TO HEAR FROM THESE PEOPLE WHETHER THEY HAVE A CONFLICT OR NOT.

IT'S VERY RARE IN MY EXPERIENCE TO HAVE A COMPLAINT OR I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER IMPOSED A SANCTION ON ANY MEMBER OF A COMMITTEE IN 13 YEARS.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ABOUT AS FAR AS I CAN GO ON COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

THANK YOU, MR. SWAYZE, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS MAYBE YOU CAN CLARIFY FOR US SO WE TALK ABOUT THE COUNCIL STAFF RELATION AND SO IT WOULD BE SIMILAR WITH COMMITTEE MEMBERS AS THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS STAFF RELATIONS, WHEREAS COMMITTEE

[02:15:03]

THEY'RE THERE AS A GROUP.

AND THAT GROUP HAS AN ADVISORY ROLE, NOT INDIVIDUALS.

THEY CAN REQUEST INFORMATION, ASK QUESTIONS, BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT WE'VE APPOINTED IN ORDER TO ADVISE AS A GROUP AND NOT DIRECT OUR MUNICIPAL STAFF.

SO MAYBE SOME CLARITY ON THAT.

WELL, THAT'S TRUE, OBVIOUSLY, AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPORTS TO COUNCIL ADVISES COUNCIL.

IF COUNCIL, IN ITS WISDOM, GIVES THEM A SECRETARY, FOR EXAMPLE, TO TAKE MINUTES AND THAT'S THAT PERSON DOES.

BUT ANY I THINK I SAID IN MY PRESENTATION WITH ANY DIRECTION TO STAFF HAS TO COME FROM COUNCIL CANNOT COME FROM AN INDIVIDUAL MEMBER OF COUNCIL OR INDIVIDUAL MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE.

IN FACT, THE COMMITTEE REPORTS ONLY TO COUNCIL AND CAN NOT DIRECT STAFF AS YOU KNOW IF THEY ALL VOTED FOR IT.

THEY STILL CAN'T IN MY OPINION, DIRECT STAFF.

THANK YOU.

MR. GAGNON.

YOU SAID YOU HAD A QUESTION FROM ONE OF OUR COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

SHE JUST WANTED TO MAYBE GET A LITTLE OF AN EXAMPLE AND A BETTER DEFINITION OF WHAT IS A SANCTION.

WE USE THAT TERM OFTEN ENOUGH THAT MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF CONTEXT AROUND THAT.

WELL, IT'S MOST COMMITTEE MEMBERS DON'T GET PAID SO THAT I CAN'T TAKE 90 DAYS AWAY FROM THEM.

THAT DOESN'T WORK.

THEY CAN BE REPRIMANDED.

AND I GUESS THE COUNCIL HAS THE POWER TO REMOVE THEM FROM A COMMITTEE.

BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I DON'T SEE ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY OF SANCTIONS.

SORRY I THINK THE QUESTION WAS MORE BROAD EVEN FOR COUNCIL.

WHAT IS A SANCTION AND AN EXAMPLE OF A SANCTION NOT NECESSARILY ON FOR A COMMITTEE PERSON, BUT FOR YOUR COUNCIL? WELL, THE SANCTION IS A BROAD TERMINOLOGY FOR A PENALTY, IT CAN BE ANYTHING CAN BE REMOVAL FROM A COMMITTEE.

IT CAN BE SUSPENSION OF PAY IT CAN BE I HAVE HAD PEOPLE RECEIVE GIFTS AND I HAVE SUSPENDED THEIR SALARY TO EQUAL THE EXACT VALUE OF THE GIFT AS AN EXAMPLE.

SO THOSE ARE ALL SANCTIONS AND THEY'RE ALL IN THE MUNICIPAL ACT.

AND IN MY PRESENTATION, I SAID THAT THERE ARE SOME OTHER THINGS YOU COULD DO, BUT ONLY IN A CONTINGENT WAY, SUCH AS A COUNCIL CAN'T ORDER SOMEONE TO APOLOGIZE.

BUT I CAN SAY YOU LOSE 30 DAYS PAY UNLESS YOU APOLOGIZE.

SO THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS FOR ME.

THANK YOU.

I ACTUALLY HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOU HAVING TO DO WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, BECAUSE PART OF OUR CODE OF CONDUCT DEALS WITH SOCIAL MEDIA.

I REMOVED MYSELF FROM SOCIAL MEDIA FOR ALMOST A YEAR NOW, I VERY RARELY GO ON TO POTENTIALLY POST AN AGENDA OR A LINK TO ONE OF OUR WEBCAST A BIT OF INFORMATION.

I STOPPED GOING ON BECAUSE A FEW REASONS WE HAVE THE SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY, I WAS DINGED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO OR SO FOR UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE, SO I KNOW WHAT VULGAR LANGUAGE IS AND COLORFUL LANGUAGE, BUT UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE.

AND SO I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AN ISSUE THERE.

I CAN POST SOMETHING DIRECTLY FROM THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND HAVE THE SAME THREE INDIVIDUALS VERBALLY ATTACK ME REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS.

IT'S ALL MY FAULT, RIGHT? SO YOU JUST HAVE THOSE THREE INDIVIDUALS AND WE ALL HAVE A COUPLE OF INDIVIDUALS THAT MAY NOT LIKE US, BUT TO DEAL WITH IT ON YOUR PERSONAL PAGE WHEN YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO PUT OUT INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE AND THE MAJORITY, ENJOYED IT GETS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I GOT DINGED FOR, AGAIN, UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE.

THE INVESTIGATOR SAID EVERYTHING THAT I SAID WAS WAS TRUE.

BUT I USED UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE AND I'M THINKING TO MYSELF, I WAS IN THE MILITARY, I KNOW SOME REALLY GOOD LANGUAGE AND THIS WASN'T ANY OF IT.

[LAUGHTER] HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHAT'S PARLIAMENTARY? IS THERE A LIST ANYWHERE THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT AND SAY, WELL, THAT WORD MAY NOT BE PARLIAMENT? WHERE DOES THE WORD COME FROM? I MEAN, IS THERE SOME CODE FOR WHAT THE WORD IS? I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

AND THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING.

I EXTEND AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF LATITUDE TO COUNCILLORS, AND THEIR VIGOROUS DEBATE.

I MEAN, I'VE HAD SOME VERY STRONG OPINIONS EXPRESSED, SOME VERY STRONG STATEMENTS MADE.

AND I WOULD NEVER SAY I WOULD NEVER BE CRITICAL OF UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE.

[02:20:02]

IT'S NOT IN THE CODE, I ASSUME.

[INAUDIBLE] THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING, BECAUSE, LIKE I SAID, SOME OF US DON'T GO ON SOCIAL MEDIA VERY MUCH ANYMORE.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S FOR THE SAME REASON YOU WANT TO STAY CONNECTED WITH CONSTITUENTS.

IT'S A REALLY GREAT WAY, ESPECIALLY DURING A PANDEMIC.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH WHEN YOU DO HAVE JUST A COUPLE PEOPLE THAT CONSTANTLY POKE, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE PUTTING ON THERE.

YOU'RE AN IMBECILE FOR SOME REASON AND THEY POKE AND POKE AND POKE.

AND IF YOU RESPOND WELL, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, A COMPLAINT IS BEING FILED BECAUSE YOU RESPONDED IN A WAY THAT THEY DIDN'T LIKE.

YEAH, I HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN THIS.

AND IF YOU LIKE HAVING A FACEBOOK GROUP, FOR EXAMPLE, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT YOU HAD OR WHETHER IT'S SOME OTHER FORM OF SOCIAL MEDIA YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO BLOCK AND YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO MUTE.

IN OTHER WORDS, PEOPLE IF YOU HAD A FACEBOOK GROUP COMMUNICATING MUNICIPAL INFORMATION.

I THINK THAT'S A VERY VALUABLE THING TO DO, AND I HAVE ONE FACEBOOK GROUP BY ONE COUNCILLOR, AND HE'S KIND OF A VERY CRITICAL GENTLEMAN, VERY CRITICAL OF HIS PEOPLE, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT I SHOULD SUPPORT ANYBODY WHO MAINTAINS A FACEBOOK GROUP TO GIVE MUNICIPAL INFORMATION TO PEOPLE AND IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE SITE IF THEY COME BACK WITH NEGATIVE COMMENTS, NASTY COMMENTS, THEY COULD BE EITHER BLOCKED OR THEY COULD BE MUTED.

SO I AM VERY SUPPORTIVE OF MAINTAINING ANY FORM OF SOCIAL MEDIA AS A COMMUNICATION DEVICE FOR YOUR ROLE AS A COUNCILLOR.

SO I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GET A COMPLAINT I WOULDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE COMPLAINT IF I WERE THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER.

THANK YOU FOR THAT.

LIKE I SAID, IT'S BEEN A CONCERN OF MINE, IT'S BEEN CLOSE TO A YEAR WHERE I'VE BARELY POSTED.

COUNCILLOR CYR AND MYSELF ARE BOTH ADMINS OF A FACEBOOK PAGE WHERE WE JUST PUT THE INFORMATION OUT THERE, 90 PERCENT OF IT WAS MUNICIPAL INFORMATION.

BUT THE ATTACK CAME FROM A POST I HAD PUT ON THERE.

THE ATTACK CAME TO MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE, AND THIS IS WHERE I RESPONDED WAS ON MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE.

AND THE OTHER THING.

AGAIN, LIKE I SAID, I KNOW [INAUDIBLE] BUT THIS WAS YOU KNOW.

HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHAT'S UNPARLIAMENTARY? I'VE BEEN TO PARLIAMENT AND THEY USE ALL KINDS OF COLORFUL LANGUAGE ATTACKING EACH OTHER.

SO, YOU KNOW.

YOU JUST GAVE ME A BIT OF EASE THERE THAT YOU CAN GO ON AND, YOU KNOW.

ABSOLUTELY.

YOU TRY AND RE-READ EVERYTHING TWICE.

THANK YOU.

I'M NOT SURE, AGAIN, HOW MANY OF OUR ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEMBERS, OR VOLUNTEERS ARE STILL ON.

CURIOUS IF ANYONE HAS ANY QUESTIONS IF YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, HIT YOUR START VIDEO BUTTONS AND POP UP HERE SO YOU CAN ASK MR. SWAYZE QUESTIONS.

I THINK SILENCE MEANS YOU'VE DONE A GREAT JOB, MR. SWAYZE, IN EXPLAINING EVERYTHING.

THANK YOU.

COUNCILLOR CYR BACK.

IS THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF COUNCIL? SEEING NONE.

OK, THANK YOU AGAIN, MR. SWAYZE AND OUR REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE MINISTRY OF MUNICIPAL HOUSING AND AFFAIRS.

THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE.

AND THANK YOU, MR. SWAYZE, FOR LETTING US KNOW YOU'RE THERE FOR QUESTIONS, IF WE HAVE ANY.

VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.

I DON'T HAVE A FULL AGENDA IN FRONT OF ME, BUT IF NO ONE HAS ANYTHING LEFT TO SAY, WE'LL CARRY ON TO AN ADJOURNMENT.

SIR, WITH YOUR PERMISSION, I WILL LEAVE THE MEETING.

FOR SURE.

THANK YOU AGAIN, MR. SWAYZE.

OK, THANKS.

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME TO ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL AND YOU MR. MAYOR.

[02:25:03]

LIKEWISE, THANK YOU, AND WE'LL BE STEPPING OUT AGAIN, GIVE US A CALL AT ANY TIME BY.

OKAY THANK YOU KATHY.

PAUL, WHEREVER HE IS.

OK, AGAIN, THERE'S NO AGENDA, IT WAS A GREAT EVENING OF PRESENTATIONS.

THANK YOU TO ALL OF OUR VOLUNTEERS FOR BEING IN ATTENDANCE THIS EVENING AND EVERYONE ON COUNCIL FOR TAKING THE TIME.

I LOOK FOR A MOTION TO ADJOURN.

MOVED BY COUNCILLOR MANN SECONDED BY COUNCILLOR FINAMORE.

ROLL CALL, VOTE COUNCILLOR FINAMORE.

IN FAVOR.

COUNCILLOR MANN.

IN FAVOR.

COUNCILLOR TURNER.

FAVOR.

COUNCILLOR PATRIE.

IN FAVOR.

COUNCILLOR PEARCE.

IN FAVOR.

AND COUNCILLOR CYR.

IN FAVOR.

THANK YOU.

I'M IN FAVOR ALSO HAVE A GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.

GOOD NIGHT ALL.

NIGHT ALL.

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.